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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are SAHMS discriminated against. Red magazine are doing an article about it.

999 replies

Darkesteyes · 25/03/2013 16:58

Just seen this on twitter.

Are stay at home mums discriminated against? Are you one and unhappy with benefits, or feel judged? Tell us.
[email protected]

OP posts:
working9while5 · 28/03/2013 14:09

It is a tad insulting to suggest that childcare is relevant to teaching in the way that it has been on this thread. Once, when teaching was predominantly male, teaching was viewed as primarily being about the transfer of knowledge. Now, as it is predominantly female, it becomes about "childcare" (in a narrow definition of that e.g. something about personality characteristics that can't be proven rather than about skilled execution of behaviours oriented towards a particular outcome).

The difficulty with being a SAHM is that you could actually be doing a tremendously dedicated sort of "job", creatively and graciously managing quite stressful situations and also tedium without becoming stressed or bored etc in a way that would transfer well to many paid roles. However, no one can really tell and there is no evidence to suggest you have been anything other than sat on your arse eating biscuits and watching Jeremy Kyle while your children mess about in the cleaning cupboards and narrowly avoid death on an hourly basis. We live in the age of "evidence" where it's not about self report, it's about product - and you can't "prove" that your day to day activities as a parent are responsible for any product and certainly not in a way that is transferable to paid work.

I don't think the issue is really about whether the activities conducted as an SAHM transfer to the workplace though, but rather why it is a given that taking time out automatically makes someone undesirable when of course there will be "SAHMs" who have been undertaking study and involved in a wide range of activities that may be highly relevant to paid work. I get the impression that "time in work" is ultimately seen as being the most attractive and necessary quality, and a number of very highly qualified women with impressive cvs and ongoing research and freelance work in their chosen field are deemed "less serious about" their jobs if they have taken 3+ years out as it is a given that children must come second to work in this culture if you are a real go-getter.

That is what I object to: the wider discourse that suggests that giving a crap about the experience of your own very young children implies a person is a bit dim-witted. clearly having shed a few brain cells along the way. "Oh I could never stay at home with the children, I'd be so BORED", "I found being with young children so TEDIOUS" etc. If women are penalised for wanting to care for their children, men are doubly so.. and we have to consider what THAT is about if not primarily about keeping women in their place.

Bonsoir · 28/03/2013 14:10

You may think it's nonsense, but my DP, who is CEO of a company employing many 100s of people, 95% of whom are women, has a very particular management role in his company (about 100 people) which is (a) difficult to recruit for (b) attractive to returners. He often prefers women who have taken a career break than women who have risen through the ranks for this job, because of its particular management aspect. Rising through the ranks is not particularly good preparation, apparently (experience shows) but a career break is. Hence...

JustinBsMum · 28/03/2013 14:11

Running a home with DCs in it is hard.
Unfortunately about half the population ie men don't do it. Until they do it is pointless, imo, expecting understanding of the role of SAHM.
The other prob is it can expand to fill the time you have, so someone above saying you have more me time has left me Confused as it felt like I had more me time in the journey to and from work when I was working again after being a SAHM.
Maybe I was just disorganised.
Also once I had a third child all my other SAHM friends had gone to work/college so there was no one around to socialise with so there can be a lack of adult company.
The grass is always greener ...

janey68 · 28/03/2013 14:13

maisie - I have to say, where I live it tends to be more WOHP who are the movers and shakers, sitting on the school governing body, PTA, setting up new local societies etc. I'm not saying SAHP don't do these things too, just they aren't the preserve of SAHM.

I've also noticed when recruiting, that graduates with the best degrees have often been involved in a whole range of broader activities too, eg running Uni societies, playing sport for Uni, volunteering...

Maybe that old adage 'if you want something done, ask a busy person' has some truth in it!

maisiejoe123 · 28/03/2013 14:17

Perhaps you could tell us what sort of roles your DP is recruiting for as I dont see it at all... What particular management aspect.. I cannot for the life of me think what it is where actually it is better to have taken a career break than not.

I am really am interested tbh as it might help some others on this thread struggling to get into the work place to focus on this type of role - whatever it is...

janey68 · 28/03/2013 14:21

working9while5 - I think you make some good points, especially with regarding to careers such as teaching and similar careers.

The bit I don't agree with is
'That is what I object to: the wider discourse that suggests that giving a crap about the experience of your own very young children implies a person is a bit dim-witted. clearly having shed a few brain cells along the way.'

I really haven't seen that on this thread (with the exception of perhaps one poster, and you always get a couple of extremists in either direction) In fact I said quite the opposite: I don;t think there is this huge divide of women who work because they can't bear to be at home, and those who are at home because they can't bear to work. Personally I always adored spending time with my children, and I would have been perfectly content being at home, but for me, part time and then full time working was the icing on the cake. It wasn't a choice between something I disliked and something I liked: it was a choice between something I enjoyed a lot (being at home) and something I enjoyed even more (being at home plus the balance of work)

JustinBsMum · 28/03/2013 14:24

This discussion is going round in circles.

However, you will be pleased to know that I have an answer to this problem.

Particularly relevant after janey 's comment about the WOHP also running PTA etc.

There should be a gov paid-for opportunity for anyone who has been out of work for more than X years to participate on a confidence building/ public speaking/ writing offical documentation (inc spelling and grammar) / how to deal with difficult people/ reading of Anne Dickson's 'A woman in your own right' or similar/ how to study / how to find time to study/ careers advice etc Course which lasts a decent length of time eg a year. in which women who have been out of the work scene can start getting back into it, discover where they want to be for the next phase of their life and nurture their, possibly forgotten, talents.

So that after being out of the workforce for however long women then have an easy route back to whatever they decide they need or want to do, that includes setting up their own business, or getting back into the workplace or starting a new career or study.

It could be run in colleges or from home, online like the OU. And anyone can pick or choose how little or much they need.

Hmmmmm, now the funding for this would come from errrrrrr...

impty · 28/03/2013 14:25

That is what I object to: the wider discourse that suggests that giving a crap about the experience of your own very young children implies a person is a bit dim-witted. clearly having shed a few brain cells along the way. and If women are penalised for wanting to care for their children, men are doubly so.. and we have to consider what THAT is about if not primarily about keeping women in their place.

Yy to these statements. The attitude to children and child care in our society is that they are/ it not as important as other paid work. If that could change it might help women and men freely choose how they live their lives, bring up their families, support themselves and contribute to the country economically.

LittleChickpea · 28/03/2013 14:30

Unfortunately about half the population i.e. men don't do it. Until they do it is pointless, imo, expecting understanding of the role of SAHM. If the couple is still in a relationship. Isn't the choice with regards who goes back to work and who stays at home long term down to the couple (salary taken into account)? Well I guess it's in every SAHM power to exercise her right to work and her DP can be the SAHD.

A question to SAHMs Would you trade positions with your DP? If you could earn his wage, would you work full time and allow him to be the SAHD long term? Really interested in hearing your views.

impty · 28/03/2013 14:33

Yes I would. However, I'd need to have the same support I give him for it to be possible.

maisiejoe123 · 28/03/2013 14:37

I dont remember tbh teaching being the preserve of men. My DM is over 80 and she was a teacher and her mother before. It was primary education so maybe different but still teaching and still a section of teaching we all use.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 28/03/2013 14:39

working9while5 "It is a tad insulting to suggest that childcare is relevant to teaching"
Don't agree at all there !
Parents are their children's first and most important educators and having been both a mother and a teacher I'd say the two roles develop and need quite a similar skill set.
Certainly the one to one interactions at the heart of good teaching and parenting have a lot in common.

janey68 · 28/03/2013 14:41

Littlechickpea - it's an interesting question isn't it? - though I think your use of the word 'allow' should be in inverted commas! It shouldn't be a case of mums 'allowing' dad to do hands on caring; it's his right as much as hers.

I really believe the way forward is for couples to discuss and plan these things, and if they want more equality they need to plan from the outset that they will work at maintaining a more equal footing in their careers.

As I've said, no one wakes up and finds themself with 3 kids and a jet setting husband who can't do his job without a wife at home. These things develop. I think often it starts pre-children: maybe the couple will relocate for the man's job, and almost imperceptibly, the woman's career takes second place. Then a child comes along, mum takes ML, maybe doesn't return, dad gets promotion....

That's why shared parental leave is such a bloody fantastic idea and gives a chance for each parent to take 6 months off so it's not the women who automatically is on the back foot.

Ultimately, men and women aren't that different in that we love and care for our children, we enjoy spending time with them, and we're also equally capable in the workplace. Why on earth should roles be so polarised? Why not each have a slice of each cake?

JustinBsMum · 28/03/2013 14:46

I wouldn't have been the WOHM in DH's role. He worked away alot and wasn't particularly hands on anyway.

maisiejoe123 · 28/03/2013 14:48

Justin - I said earlier that there should be a course for SAHP's looking to go back to the workplace to assist with brushing up on skills and helping with what to put on your CV It didnt go down very well... And then people started complaining that their parenting skills are equally as important as people who havent had a career break.

One even listed out word for word a tantrum their child had and how they coped with it. Another listed all the things they do during the day.

Its of little relevance to someone looking for an executive in the city or someone who will have to do a fair amount of travelling.

People on this thread with very up to date experiences are trying to help, they are telling others how interviews are and what you are expected to show. The world of work has really really changed. I wish the golden years were still here. The last few years have been very tough for everyone. When people leave the work is just divided up amongst the remainder. When someone goes on 1 year maternity leave - ditto!

You can carry on bleating about how its not fair that no one takes your parenting skills seriously. Well - if I am frank - they only have your word for it that you arent sitting around all day! I am not saying you are or you arent but certainly - and I will be very very honest here. If I had a career break Mum for a middle income role -( lets say £30k) in front of me who said that she just never had time to do any volunteering or help out in the community I would be very worried that she had the trickest children in the world or that she was just disorganised.

maisiejoe123 · 28/03/2013 14:54

I have seen many friends sign and groan when their DH's try and do something. They hover around and eventually the chap says 'I'll tell you what - you do it!'

I am sometimes guility of that. I have my own way of doing something and do hover. I had to address it as it was getting me in all sorts of trouble. So, my DH and I decided who would do what, I do the cleaning, laundry, the shopping and so forth. He does the garden etc. And we DONT interfere in each others roles.....

Of course it doesnt always work 100% and when one has tried to butt into another persons role. Well who would like a white size 10 expensive Whistles top (now pink top - size 1!!)

JugglingFromHereToThere · 28/03/2013 14:57

It's interesting to have your perspective maisie and I guess you have to see that interviewers would be impressed with volunteering roles in the community because they'd know you were taking that on in addition to your regular commitments as a mother. But it still feels rather as though those parenting experiences and skills are just completely ignored ! It often feels like you'd have a better chance of getting the job if you didn't have children, even for jobs working with children, which is frustrating !

working9while5 · 28/03/2013 14:59

Yes Juggling, but I don't think childcare was being spoken about in that broader sense but in the sense it is often spoken about on MN as being about "drudgery".

I would say that the one to one interactions you talk about are actually examples of quite skilled behaviour, but in current discourse, they are often described in waffly and imprecise ways which undermine their importance e.g. it's all about love and precious moments and the like, which while there is definite merit to on a personal level devalues what is actually happening and its importance to our society. I actually think that quality teaching has a lot of similarities to quality parenting but the ways in which they are spoken about suggest that a comparison in terms of this debate tends to be somewhat more perjorative.

Ultimately, I think the issue for me is what we communicate about the value of a personal life surrounded by our closest connections. I have no doubt that kids, being pretty resilient, will thrive in day care as will my own. However, I think that the consequence of using paid childcare costing little more than minimum wage means that the wider culture accepts that when you are vulnerable and not "producing" e.g. young children, the disabled, infirm and elderly infirm, you will have a lot of your day to day interaction paid for rather than provided. I think that this can be very problematic in real terms. There is no doubt that there are excellent and loving paid childcarers and excellent and caring home helps etc, but there is a deep loss of community happening where every caring transaction needs to be something that is paid and with a cost.

Again and again, this comes back to women's choices when as has been said by so many on this thread, really it is about both male and female choices. I will be honest and say I really do believe family care is better from my own point of view from the point of view of what I want to communicate about the importance of my children to me/their dad. Yet because of the wider culture, I am just not in a position to split that role equally (though dh earns a similar figure to me, flexible working is not often granted in his role) so my choices are: a) accept the status quo but put my desire for my children to be cared for by a family member first; b) reduce how much I work (staying at home is not financially viable because of mortgage).

Our current solution is that I will work 2.5 days term time only on a 3 day/2 day fortnight with one day studying a qualification which will allow me to be self-employed in a year or two so I can set my own hours and be available outside of school with dh using his annual leave to cover the additional day I work a fortnight so that the children have only 3 days in childcare. We were originally hoping to keep it to 2 but it's just proving impossible to manage to support study at the same time and delaying the study will delay the next phase when I want to be available after school.

It is really a lot less than ideal. Dh would be more than happy to work the same pattern as I do and we would have made this work, but it isn't an option. He and I certainly both could contribute both at home and at work with this sort of set up due to the nature of our roles, yet it is just unheard of and basically just a non-runner.

All of this suggests to me that the role of childcarer is discriminated against, regardless of gender. I don't believe that most workplaces couldn't support more split roles if the wider culture was prepared to value childcare. Men won't do it while there is no value on it either... I often read on threads like these that if men wanted to they would as they have all the power.. but I think it's less about what people want than what they have been taught to believe that they want and the mechanisms by which society keeps its members behaving in a particular way are complex. I don't think every man relishes work above being at home with their family any more than any woman desperately wants to be at home but is constrained by finances. I just think that for whatever reason, the current set up suits people in power and so it is maintained.

FasterStronger · 28/03/2013 15:34

aren't we looking back to the 1950's housewife and thinking it was ever thus?

working class women and men have always worked.

janey68 · 28/03/2013 15:38

A lot of food for though there, working9through5.

One thing I'd add: despite what some people feel to the contrary, I do believe things are generally moving in the right direction. Also a lot depends on your particular stage in life: I sometimes feel some of the younger mums on here forget that us older mums had our babies in the days of 3 months paid maternity leave and NO paternity leave at all. My dd was born early evening and dh had literally the day of birth off and was back at work next morning- and it wasn't that long ago. I would have given my right arm for the parental leave conditions now. So while we all come at things from our own perspective, I think we need to try to keep the bigger picture in mind. In my view anything which promotes parenting as an equal responsibility - AND skill- between parents is massively important, as is anything which promotes the fact that women are just as capable in the workplace as dads.

Goldenbear · 28/03/2013 15:40

I think that could be disputed.

FasterStronger · 28/03/2013 15:51

which bit?

Goldenbear · 28/03/2013 16:08

So do you think working practices and conditions for WC women pre 1950's are something we should all be aspiring to?

maisiejoe123 · 28/03/2013 16:15

Golden - how would you know.... Ask the people who are working (and recruiting). Loads on this call are just trying to help SAHP go back to work and make themselves attractive to interviewers. If you think you know best as the interviewee go ahead and say some of the things quoted on this thread.

You will then wonder why you didnt get the role.....

LittleChickpea · 28/03/2013 16:20

Dear me! Sometime it's better to say nothing when you have no substance for commenting... Silence can be golden.. Confused