Are SAHMS discriminated against. Red magazine are doing an article about it.

[Darkesteyes]

Just seen this on twitter.

Are stay at home mums discriminated against? Are you one and unhappy with benefits, or feel judged? Tell us.
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Comparing intervening in family squabbles to complicated skilled mediating is utter rot
Managing your grocery spend is in no way comparable to understanding finances
Repetitive,habitual family task bear no resemblance to employment

Everything you write sounds totally familiar, unlucky83, and I'm sure resonates with parents across the globe. I just don't buy into this idea that it's only as a SAHM that you are dealing with all the trials and tribulations (as well as the golden moments) of parenting. And yes, I've worked part time, as indeed many mums do during the pre-school years so frequently had whole days at home

This looks as though it's veering dangerously towards competitiveness again which is a shame... it's not about trying to something is harder.

In fact I'm finding it a little ironic... we've had lots of posts about how parenting is undervalued, yet when a list of parenting skills is presented and we agree with it, it suddenly seems as though people want to start arguing again.

Unlucky, I hope you're being facetious but, on the off chance you're not...

If you were needing to provide some sort of evidence of your negotiation skills as part of the selection process for a job it would be because the job spec required negotiation skills. Unless it was a job where you were expected to deal with tantrumming toddlers, and indeed even if it were, I would expect you to provide me with an example of when you negotiated with an adult as an adult in at least a semi-professional manner (at the bank, with the council, on behalf of an elderly neighbour, ...). Bearing in mind that every other candidate is also going to try to show evidence of their negotiation skills, you wouldn't get very far with such a mundane example.

I can't even bother to reply to that scottishmummy - think that might just be stirring and belittling SAHPs ...and I really hope you are not so blinkered to really feel like that...
Like I said I have done both FTWM and SAHM - I think they are both hard...
(I do sort of work part-time - but from home, 4 hours a week for a pittance - and do alot of admin for local charities - just to stop complete brain rot)
Actually I think working part-time would perfect...but I suspect that might be a bit of the grass being greener again
Now DCs are older (both at school) it is a lot easier - and I do want a job - but actually I do think that I will never get back into the career I gave everything up for and studied/worked towards 9yrs - a job I loved - just because I didn't read the best before date on a tube of spermicidal jelly that must have been hanging around for years and turned up when I packed up to relocate!

(But I do really love my DCs too )

Yes and how many jobs REALLY require those skills Scottish? The self- aggrandising revealing itself on this thread is toe curling cringeworthy! Up thread it was mentioned that only 8% of women get paid over £40,000, which suggests that a majority of women are not in key decision making roles, where these highly demanding skill sets would be required- come on you're kidding yourselves! For a vast majority of men and women work is repetitive and 'habitual', even at a professional level this is the case. Prior to SAH status my job involved writing and creating lots of job adverts for national press. This a) gave me an insight into the BS nature of recruitment demands in comparison to the reality of the jobs behind the words and b) made me realise that most jobs involve lots of transferable skills as they are described as specific but are actually fairly generic.

BTW permanently - I was being facetious - but actually now negotiating with a hormone flying 12 yo - that really does test your skills - and I believe it is only going to get harder...
Actually for both toddlers and adolescents I would suggest it is harder than with adults - seeing as (most) adults do seem to be capable of rational thought...

Hmmm...

I went from avid party girl who was career minded n set on becoming a famous writer and who wanted to venture the world n live vicariously as a single woman, only to find out my absolutely wonderful boyfriend got me pregnant.

I turned into ur A-typical mum who wants nothing more than to stay home and nurture my daughter. We aren't millionaires, we aren't wealthy, we are just comfortable n learning through this experience. But people assume I'm lazy n I have no zest for life. My mother bein the no.1 culprit. Which I find strange cause she was a mother who did nothing but slog n who never had time for us- by the time she got home, she was angry n tired as children are very clingy to their parents. I just remember her unpleasant to be around n I know it is cause she was tired.

Yes, stay home mums are judged. But so are working mums- I judged mine...

Either way, women are expected to be able to do 1,000,000 things and stay calm n collected. We are not super women, we are super-just-ordinary-women, who put too much pressure on ourselves n who want our husbands n kids to appreciate us for our incredulous feats when we fail to realise- just doin things at the right time is all we need to do, goin beyond our limits sets expectations on our end, of gratitude from the people we love n that's where we cause rifts...

The 5 emergency days off work could work. My point is that if DC is rushed to hospital, regardless of whether you are about to make a powerpoint talk or not, you will take time off with the blessing of wrk. However, if DC is not settling at school and has wet his her pants and crying and teacher decides best if parent comes in, the blessing won't be so forthcoming, especially if it is the third time.But it would be nice to say to your male DP, you do the next 'emergency' and I'll do the one after, it doesn't automatically fall on the mother. Plus, yes others will skive off but that's fine because you are all on an equal footing, no discrimination against apparently 'non committed' DMs who normally do the 'caring'.

SAHM work is v tedious and in my day was pretty soul destroying imv. Many DMs were content to go back to a less demanding job, as DCs grew older, as confidence had gone and they might need to take time off for DCs which is harder with more responsibility.

As GParents are living longer perhaps an assumption that they will step in for some caring is one way to go (on the assumption there are not many GCs or that it doesn't go on too long into their old age), though this is not always possible. Perhaps setting a target for part time work for mothers of small children, so the chance to get out to work, even if it's 2 mornings a week, is there as a stepping stone for SAHMs eg for every 20 ft workers one must be for pt mothers

The 5 emergency days off work could work. Not saying it would or wouldn't work but I do have a question. Wouldnt the employer be discriminating against employees without children by doing this?

In my industry there are plenty of very well paid roles. But to get the job you need to demonstrate the right skills and flexibility etc. The more you earn, the higher the expectation that you work to the needs of the business. We work to deadlines and oftain last minute client needs mean people are expected to work into the evening and/or get in early to get the job done. The opportunities are there but if people don't feel they can commit to that, well then they don't apply. Thats there choice. That's not discrimination, it's what's in the best interest of the business.

I do a lot of recruitment for the organisation I work for, and in my experience, a lot of SAHMs who want to return to work let themselves down and don't sell themselves at interview. From the demeanour when they walk into the room, the wet fish handshake, what they wear (I had one come to interview wearing a T shirt with a slogan advertising a supermarket the other week) and why they want the job - I have had two people say to me "I thought I could probably manage to do it." I had one who said "I'm not sure I do, it sounds a bit demanding to me." Frankly, what you say next is of little consequence, because the employer has already decided you're not going to get the job.

(All of these quoted had great CVs and really good jobs before becoming a SAHM, so where did the confidence go? And what can be done to get it back?)

i don't think a parent negotiating with a child is relevant to workplace where last time i checked no one was anyone parent or child. Who wants to be spoken to like a 5 year old by a colleague? Who speaks to a 5 year old like they are a colleague?

also someone at interview saying they manage the family's money - as a financial skill...what!?! how does this relate to even basic company account issues e.g. VAT, NI, GL.

its not that being a SAHP doesn't give you skills, it clearly does, they don't seem relevant and i would think someone has completely lost the plot about work if they started talking about their DC skills at interview. it would be as relevant as someone talking about negotiating with their DH/P as a skill relevant to work.

they had a job before DC, which would be far more relevant. to talk about their SAH role at an interview seems very unworldly and completely out of touch with the world of work.

someone to steer well clear of.

scottishmummy was as blunt as ever but had somewhat of a point. If you were asked in an interview "can you give me an example of how you have demonstrated financial planning skills?" saying you manage your household budget would not secure you the job.

I think it's important to "validate" the skills you acquire as a SAHM through qualifications - but it's worth remembering that skills need updating all the time whether you are in work or not.

These days there are plenty of online courses as well as HE colleges which can offer skills training in IT, management, mediation, counselling, coaching, customer services, accounting, there are OU diplomas etc. Updating your skills shows an employer you are serious about re-entering the workplace, and many of them are quite affordable.

I would give the same advice to someone who has just left a lengthy stint with one employer (eg redundancy). Having a long work record in the same job can be just as stultifying as a period out of the workplace!

Doing a stint of volunteering is also useful for getting up-to-date workplace experience.

This is quite a useful resource, as is this.

An interesting article here.

I actually despair at some of this recruitment 'advice'. If I had the misfortune to come across some of these ignorant attitudes at an interview, I would make my excuses and leave. Luckily, I'm in the fortunate position of not having to accept whatever job that comes along. Enlightened, progressive employers can well see the competitive advantage of employing a diverse workforce and that includes people who have a SAH background. I have been offered freelance work with people who are very, very wealthy but they have money to invest in new ideas and as such they are open to employing that diversity.

And actually no one has asked for any advice!

Golden I don't know if your comment was directed at me or not...

The point I have been trying to make is that everyone has a range of skills. Most SAHMs have left employment to care for their children at home, and so are not strangers to the workplace.

I think the problem many women face returning to work after an absence is a lack of confidence because they feel their experience is dated. That can also apply to someone being made redundant from a job they have held for a long time with a single employer.

Ultimately some employers are better than others when it comes to making assumptions about women with young families. The same assumptions are never made about men with young families - but that's a whole other thread!

Goldenbear- yes, youve already mentioned the amazing highly paid work that you've been offered and turned down... I still don't see why you are. being so dismissive of those of us who are involved in recruitment. We have said over and over again that all we are interested in is appointinng the best person for the job: someone with the skills and confidence to do it well, and who will work well with the existing team. You seen determined to find something hugely controversial about that, and equally determined that we're all missing out on these hordes of SAHM. We're not. I am very happy with the appointments I've made over the last few years, and yes, that includes people from a diverse range of backgrounds.

But like others have said, if someone cited managing the family budget or intervening with an argument between toddlers, as examples of skills, I wouldn't be overly impressed as these don't have relevance to my workplace. And even where they might have relevance (eg if you were applying for a housekeeper or nursery job) then tbh they are still skills that any parent develops and as such are not specific to a SAHM. I don't discriminate against SAHM at all. If they can prove they are the best person for the job they'll get it

I'm with ScottishMummy. You cannot equate basic living skills with skills in the workplace.

Employers are biased against any employment gaps, for whatever reason. My DH took 3 years out of being a degree qualified, highly skilled engineer, to do his sport to British team level. He was unemployed for many months before having to take a drop in salary to get back into the workplace, and that was before the recession hit.

Likewise, I run my own property business and thought I could dip in and out of my profession with contract work when it suited me. Not on your nelly! Employers weren't interested in the skills or experience I had acquired through running my own business, they only wanted to see a regular record of employment and skills directly from that record of employment. Similarly, a friend who left her job as a commercial lawyer to study for a degree and has ran out of funds halfway through, has been unable to get back into law and is now working as a receptionist.

Working mothers and full time working women in demanding careers are probably under-represented on mumsnet, and in the media. They just don't have the time to make their voices heard. SAHMS are over-represented on mumsnet, because they have the time and ability to post - in most of my jobs, I wasn't allowed to post on the internet 9-5, even during breaks! tbh, its those silent voices of the hard working majority I feel for, who just get on with it.

I think a lot of people misunderstand this element of the debate.

Pointing out the skills you can acquire as a full-time carer of young children and running a home is something which I think helps women who have been SAHM for a lengthy period in terms of their confidence. It comes, I think, from the fact that many SAHMs do feel undervalued.

However, that isn't to say that SAHMs should go to interviews and talk about how they get everyone out the door in the morning! These are, after all, skills that all parents develop, whether they are SAHM or WOHM.

It's more about people understanding the skills they do use, and giving them the confidence to build on those skills through training, and present whatever skills they have as relevant to a particular job.

Anyone who goes for a job has to present themselves in a way that persuades an employer they have the skills and experience relevant to the role, no matter what their employment history is!

That might be harder for someone who has spent 10 years out of the workplace, but it's not difficult to show commitment to learning and work experience through volunteering, enthusiasm for the role and a wish to develop new skills.

It isn't just SAHMs who struggle at interviews - particularly these days!

No. Stay at home mum can be as great as those who are working in the workplace, they can have their own success by devoting to the family as well as their own business. My mum is the one, in addition to take care of us in a perfect way, she is still operating small jewelry store which go smooth in the unexpected situation. :) Thus, no.

fucking hell is this STILL running?

jesus

how is making childcare cheaper a jibe at SAHMs????

Please - if you are a SAHP looking to get back into the market place please dont talk about litle Sarah screamed and screamed during a supermarket visit and you sorted it out to demo your negotiation skills! Surely you cannot think that will impress the interviewers.

You will be at a disadvantage just like tons of other sections of society. You didnt go to the right school, you arent pretty enough, you follow a religion that requires you to wear a burka and you are expected to be customer facing, you dont have the skills, someone else has already been 'promised' the role and they are going through the motions (that happens at lot at my company!).

And as other posters have said - if you state that you run the family finances. Well, what makes you so different from the rest of us. I dont have an accountant. I do it myself just like 99% of the population.

I do wonder if this is really what SAHP's think will impress interviewers (it wont!) what about a back to work course JUST for SAHP's, role plays, help with CV writing etc and some confidence building?

Am I alone in finding the job seeking tips a bit patronising. I don't have paid employment, I haven't had a lobotomy!

There will always be people who say nonsense in a job interview!

olgaga - a well balanced, thoughtful post.

I agree - it's a tough old world out there. Thinking about recent recruitment situations I could happily have appointed several people after the final interview stage. It's not pleasant turning down people who you know could could the job well, but at the end of the day we all have a responsibility to recruit the best person.

The word confidence keeps cropping up, and I think that's key. A lot of women on MN talk about the loss of confidence that can come with being a SAHM and there's a genuine debate to be had on that (please god without the slagging off and WOHM/SAHM divide that always seems to go with the territory)

I am hugely interested in the whole debate about how at a systemic level, society can begin to value parenting more, and as I've already said in other posts, I think this has to come from policy which removes the gender divide. The transferable parental leave is a massive step forward - as long as dads take it - and mums let them get a look in. I suspect there will still be sitiuations where the woman has down played her career, and facilitated her husband in getting ahead even before children come along, and she will then want to take the whole 12 months leave because she already feels her career is of less value.... But overall I think it's a positive move and if it moves people away from just assuming that women and men are pigeonholed then thats great. I think policy which supports dual income will hopefully also move things in this direction... it acknowledges that women and men are equal in terms of intellect, skills etc. At the end of the day, my dd is just as capable of having a great career as my ds, and he is just as capable of being a nurturing parent as she is. Such policies don't prevent people from making their own choices within their own family - if a couple want traditional roles where dad earns a lot and mum stays at home then that's still an option; the main difference is it's not an assumption

When there is a fundamental shift in thinking, that's when parenting will be valued, and that should lead to parents feeling more confident about their skills. If in my daughter's or grand daughter's generation, it's far more the norm for couples to share parental leave, with dad taking 6 months, and far more common for couples to have more equal roles (perhaps both flexi working, or both taking less stressful jobs so that they can both work rather one having to be at home to support the other's job) then I think that's when we'll see parenting valued more.

As with most things, people find it hard to buy into something when they won't be the direct beneficiary. People will think that's all very well for future generations but what about now? I agree with olgaga's points about SAHM ensuring they keep up to date, retrain, volunteer etc, and all these apply equally to people who've been out of the work place for any reason. And as people with responsibility for recruitment, we have a duty to be open minded - which I believe most of us are; we have all said we want the best person for the job, whether they are currently in post or not. What won't increase a SAHM's self confidence is for employers to adopt a patronising attitude and pretend that managing the family budget or intervening in children's squabbles is relevant. All parents of young children are likely to develop certain skills (remaining calm in the event of bubble bath being emptied over my sitting room floor springs to mind for me!) but like olgaga says, no employer is going to be interested in that, it's how a person builds on their skills, and transfers them successfully which counts.

I'm a SAHM and I'd be seriously to refer to any childcare/household stuff as skills or experience for a job interview! I'm deciding what I want to do when I return to work and I will be attending the relevant courses to update or learn new skills.

Your last post does seem a little patronising maisiejoe - I think most of us who have ever gone for an interview during a time of being a SAHM are very aware of how little we can talk about our current situation and will talk much more about our previous working experience.
It's just in some situations - such as when I've been applying to work as a TA in a school working with the early years - it does seem a shame when I don't feel confident to talk about the many very relevant experiences and skills that having my own children and learning so much more about the realities and challenges of parenthood, as well as child development, learning through play etc. etc. has brought me.