aibu to think brother and sil are snubbing my mother or is it just paranoia?

[Paje]

Bit of backstory: my mother and my sil have never really gelled but were cordial enough. Last summer, my brother (rather stupidly, imo) confided in a drunken call to our mother that he and sil were having issues. Mum offered a lot of (unsolicited) advice to the pair of them. For whatever reason, they only resumed contact at Christmas -and only because she sent them a card.
Anyway, mum sends them a 1st class letter tuesday last saying she is to visit briefly sunday and will they contact her to confirm. Saturday morning arrives and not a word from them. They eventually speak to mum but ONLY after my other sister called them (they never seem to pick up to mum-they have caller ID). They said they had other things on and couldn't see her. However, mum went anyway as she had other reasons to be in the area. She called them while in the area on the sunday and they went to see her briefly. But she says they were offhand and sil seemed to ignore her.

I think they're cutting her off. AIBU?

I'll also say, that DH spoke to his parents about the way they were treating me, and reminded them that it upsets us both to have our children spoken about so cruelly.

By this time, they had moved house and were living in the next street to us, so the surprise prolonged stays had ended but the hour long visits three or four times a day, every day had started, so the upsetting comments had also increased as we were seeing them more.

In response, MIL swore she would never set foot in our house until I got over it and we both started to treat her with more respect. They then took to calling the house several times a day, call after call after call, either to tell us why we were so awful or to cry and make us feel guilty. They wanted us to apologise for them because we were upset about the comments they made and we had no right to be, they started to follow me along the road every time I left the house and they parked outside it to watch us through the windows. They lied to everyone else in the family about what had happened and one of my BILs kept sending abusive messages to us. They tricked us into believing that BIL had a rare blood disorder that might kill him, and that it was hereditary so DH and DS might have it and that it might be the reason our babies died. It was all lies to gain sympathy. They also wrote a lot of letters to me telling me why I was wrong and why I had to start doing as I was told by them because then everything would be alright.

And even so, though all that and much more, if they had listened to me or to DH, and backed off a bit, I think we could have come around in time and still had a relationship.

It was the pushing and demanding and bullying that they did for two whole years after DH first asked them to stop that did the bulk of the damage. We were still trying to see them during much of those two years, and if they had accepted that things would feel a little strained and embarrassed on both sides but would get better with time, we probably would still have a relationship today. Instead they just battered us with demands and bizarre behaviour for two years until they made me ill and that was the end for me. Our relationship is over, they've killed any chance of recovery.

So if there's one bit of advice I can give to you and your mother, it's this. Don't push them to make up or sort things out. Respect their need for distance, don't make any demands on them or their time, keep things friendly, send the birthday cards etc but not the letters demanding to see them. Perhaps one letter or card which apologises for any hurt her comments caused and a promise to respect their space and a warm welcome any time they would like to come and visit her. And then keep that promise, no more 'home truths' and no pushing for them to come around before they are ready. Because anything else drives people further away.

Sorry, am going to be cruel to be kind here: your mum sounds quite manipulative, controlling and bad at understanding and respecting boundaries. Telling them home truths (ie being bitchy, petty and cruel, because that's what 'home truths' means), telling them she will be visiting and when, instead of asking or waiting to be invited, arguing but then still expecting them to come to the dinner party... it sounds like she's used to throwing her weight around and being able to say and do whatever she wants and you and the rest of your family are used to going along with it and keeping her sweet. I'm sure she can be lovely otherwise, but she sounds an awful MIL and a very demanding, controlling mother who doesn't seem to entirely view her child(ren) as full adults.

The very fact that you are on here trying to work out how to make everything nice again and make your mum happy again, shows that you are in a pattern of automatically feeling the need to make your mother happy, be responsible for her moods and feelings, etc. The fact that you think that them not going to a dinner party after being insulted is as bad a 'crime' as how your Dm has treated them speaks volumes.

Your brother was right not to go to the dinner party after arguing, IMHO. This shows a mature sense of personal boundaries and self-respect. If he has been insulted and upset then why should he stuff it all inside himself and pretend it never happened and go play nicey-nicey at mummy's house just so she can save face? Them not going actually sounds like a hard lesson learnt for her (or it should be) - she can't expect to say and do whatever she likes and have people ask 'how high?' when she says jump.

Your focus should be on your brother, not SIL. Your mother is his mother, not hers. He needs to sort it out - if he wants to. For all you know, your brother might find your mother incredibly hard work and controlling, etc., and looks to your SIL to support him in keeping contact brief and infrequent. She might be suggesting he make more contact with his mum and he's refusing, for all you know.

If your mum really wants things to be sorted out - as opposed to having them apologise and her feel like a vindicated victim who has been in the right all the time - then she needs to extend the olive branch, examine her own behaviour in all this, apologise with genuine contrition and understanding of what she did wrong and then look at how to sort out her patterns of behaviour that make her upset them so. Yes, your brother could do the same too, but from what you say, even though you're on her side, she sounds like she behaves quite selfishly and thoughtlessly a lot of the time. If someone treats you that way, it's healthy to want to reduce or cut contact with them, even if they are your own motheer.

FPL, so sorry for your losses and the terrible treatment you endured from your foul ILs. No-one should have to go through any of that

Hi was it Mother's Day she was planning to visit them?! Maybe a better thing would be to write and apologise and ask if they could get together some time at the couple's convenience. Bit late now though I suppose. I think it's v tricky being a mil but the worst thing to do is be pushy and demanding. My mil got v weird when I had my first baby, every little meeting was so loaded. We would have a nice day and she couldn't just say that, it would be "what a nice day. It bodes well for the FUTURE. We mustn't let time slip away etc" which would just make me want to run in the opposite direction! If she said what a lovely day, we must do it again some time and left it there, I would have prob thought the same. But she would want to pin me down to days, and fish about when I saw my mum etc. I have two boys, but one of them has autism and if he grows up and is able to live independently with a partner and makes his own life, I will be one v happy mil!

If you'd like to see someone you phone them up and talk to them and discuss where and when would be a good time to meet up. The sending a letter announcing you are visiting thing sounds bizarre and really disfunctional. Her social skills sound apalling and she sounds very self centred. If they don't pick up the phone to her then she leaves a message asking them to phone her back or she sends a letter saying she would like to meet up some time.
Her son has a right not to see her if he doesn't want to. She should keep up correspondence but not try and force herself on him. It's not surprising they were off hand when she called them on the Sunday (when I note they did pick up the phone so she could have left a phone message) as they may have had other plans and resented her trying to change their plans.
I also don't understand why SIL is getting the blame for your brother not wanting to see his mum, or why you are taking your mum's side or getting involved at all.
I also think that if anyone plans a meal to celebrate the birth of a baby it should be the parents of the baby and the baby should actually be there. If any relative had told me 6 months after the birth of my kids that they were having a big dinner and it was for the birth of my child and therefore I HAD to attend I'd have felt very manipulated and pissed off.

Diddl and Oxford thank you.

I think she sent a letter because they're not answering her phone calls.

I'd like to make one thing clear, though: I do NOT blame my sil for ignoring my mum (although, I do think she has resorted to playing dirty a bit i.e. switching off ringer, screening calls, hiding mum's letters until it's too late and other plans have been made. She is there all day as she works part-time in evenings and this is the second time one of mum's 1st class letters has arrived 3 days late).

Nevertheless, I've been convinced here to stay well out of it so that's what I'll do. UNLESS mum comes to her senses and she wants to write a grovelling letter to them.

You have no idea what your Mother has been saying/doing to these two. She isn't going to tell you that's she's been a cow is she? She may not even realise she's been interfering. If SIL is prickly then all the more reason to pick her words wisely.
At the moment I am not seeing my MIL after a year of prolonged nastiness. I don't think she's noticed yet. But after putting up with nonsense for the last 20 years it isn't a course I have chosen to take lightly. No doubt my MIL will think she's a saint and I am being ridiculous when she actually notices- at the moment she is just deliriously happy she sees DH and DS without me.
Just don't interfere, your brother will not thank you for it nor will your SIL- they will think you are ganging up against them. If your DM thinks they aren't speaking to her she should try and build bridges not send them a letter announcing her arrival.

Erm if you reread your post I think you'll see that you very definitely blame your SIL for ignoring your mum and are sounding rather paranoid.

You know all those threads about the nightnare mil and the rest of the family don't seem to be able to see what a nightmare she is - I reckon you are that family.

What does your dbro say about it to you?

She sent a letter saying she WOULD be visiting. That's rude.
Thyey have hinted and hinted and hinted that they don't want her to come, that they want no contact with her. How much clearer could they be?

And yet, she STILL imposed herself on them.

Not a nice card saying, I'm sorry we haven't spoke recently, I'd like to catch up, please get in contact when it's convenient, BUT A RUDDY LETTER INFORMING THEM OF AN IMPOSED "VISIT".

Can you not see how rude that is? How thick skinned she must be to not see that she is not welcome at their house?

No I really should have made this more clear: she was visiting for a friend's party and said that she'd like to see them, too, and to call if NOT convenient. My fault for not saying earlier.

I also am aware that she can alienate people and can be a nightmare.

I do NOT blame my sil IF she has resorted to dirty tricks at all. I can understand it. But I've been convinced here that unless my mother comes to her senses (fat chance of this btw!) and needs a hand to write a grovelling letter not to interfere.

I wouldn't blame your sil, or your brother for that matter, for ignoring these charmless missives.

It sounds very much like your Mum is the type who expects she can do and say as she pleases and expects people to fall in line with her.

I'm sorry but if I was having problems in my marriage and someone then tried to put the boot in rather than support us working through it, I would have no choice but to cease contact with them immediately.

If they later apologised, and I felt that the marriage was strong enough to take their imput, I might relent a bit.

But rather than apologise, the MIL has forced herself on them in an incredibly manipulative way- sending a letter and then even after being told it wasn't convenient going anyway.

It seems to me the SIL and brother are showing a bit of class by distancing themselves subtly without forcing a big drama or family crisis out of it.

By interefering, you risk doing this.

Absolutely brilliant post at 10:02 from OxfordBags.

OP, save yourself some time and trouble and take her advice about separating yourself from your mothers behaviour.

But why should they have to call if not convenient?
I invite people to my house when I want them there. I don't expect people to invite themselves, especially people who I've made it plain, I don't want to visit.

What did she think she would achieve by turning up on the doorstep of people who had obviously been going out of their way to avoid her?

It was RUDE. RUDE. RUDE.

It doesn't matter why she was "in the neighbourhood". It doesn't matter if she was visiting their next-door-neighbour. She was not invited to visit them.

It's rude to write a letter telling people that you will visit unless the call and give you the opportunity of guilting them into seeing you explain why it's not convenient. Very entitled behaviour.

Also, screening calls and turning off your ringer are not 'dirty tactics'; they're perfectly reasonable actions. People aren't obliged to make themselves available to someone else whenever they want to talk to them. It makes no difference that your SIL doesn't work during the day. she doesn't have to speak to her MIL if she doesn't want to.First class letters are often late, IME. Even if they're not, you are just assuming that your SIL is hiding them from your brother. Why couldn't it be that your brother is also ignoring the letters and calls?

You seem absolutely desperate to blame your SIL (despite protesting otherwise) for the breakdown in the relationship between your mother and her son. All the evidence suggests that your brother has no desire to have contact with his mother.

I know my sil is the type of person to hide letters etc. She confided in me many years ago that she does this sort of thing. I'm not blaming her at all for doing this; recognising she is doing it is not the same as blame.

I also know that my brother is not the sort to lie about when a letter arrived. It's pretty clear that TWO letters sent by 1st class mail do not arrive 3 days later.

He doesn't care-he is slightly autistic and that for him (maybe not other autistic people) means he sees no value in meeting others like those with non-autistic brains do- if he sees mum or not. He loves her but seeing her is not a big deal for him. Now mum has pissed off sil, I think that the combination of this and my sil's attempts to keep mum away means the end of her visiting them.

It's hard to see your mum cry and say things like 'he doesn't care about me', 'he never visits' etc, but, I won't interfere.

sunday was mothers day. At best, they got the letter on Wednesday or Thursday - but it's not unreasonable to assume it might not have arrived until Saturday if posted on a Tuesday (esp if posted late on a Tuesday so was collected in the Wednesday post). SIL has her own mother I presume and they have DCs, most people will have made Mothers day plans a week or so in advance.

It's also really as the 'active mother' of small DCs, SIL's day - for most couples with small DCs, Mothers day is focussed on spoiling the mum who's still mothering children, that would be SIL. To ask her to change her plans in order to accomodate a MIL who's been rude to her was always going to be rather a stupid idea. I wouldn't be surprised if your DB got the letter and ignored it rather than risk the day being spoilt.

The dinner party also sounds like MIL trying to take over, arrange stuff for a couple who don't want it - "welcoming a child into the family" meals are always hosted by the parents, not the grandparents IME - it was rather cheeky of her to do it in the first place, I wonder how much say they had in it - someone going to a lot of effort for you when you've not asked for it is actually rather annoying, you shouldn't be made to feel grateful for a favour you've not asked for.

But as been said upthread, you need to look at yourself in this, it's not for you to try to fix. Your mother is an adult, as is her son. She is reeping what she sowed. If she wants to fix it, she needs to stop acting like she has a right to a relationship with them, and start apologising, without at all mentioning what they have done wrong in her eyes, but don't you start feeling the need to get involved, your mother should be able to work this out for herself.

Are you very worried about your mum getting older and the full burden of care falling on you? Or as she's a 'tricky' person, you having no one else to dilute her? If she's also awful to you, you are also allowed to cut her out, or reduce contact.

The issue is still between your mother and your brother though. She may just have to learn to live with the fact that her son doesn't really care about seeing her. It's not your SIL's responsibility to ensure he keeps up a relationship with his mother.

I assume that he has a mobile phone and she could speak to him on that. If he isn't answering it, it's because he doesn't want to speak to her.

But can't you see that the way that the letter should have read, was "I will be in the area, I'd love to see you, please call me to arrange a time if convenient" ?

That way they do not have to get in touch at all if they DO NOT WANT TO.

It doesn't matter when the letters arrived. They do not want contact, they just want to be left alone.

You and your mother have to recognise that your SIL does not want your mother in her house for whatever reason. And it's quite likely that your brother supports her in this. Good for him.

Seen your last message - what's stopping yoru mum calling when she knows your DB is in the house?

I would tell your mum you don't want to talk about her relationship with DB. You don't want her to cry on you, it's actually rather inappropriate that she's using you as support in this. It's not fair, because as well as damaging her own relationship with her son, by crying on you about it she's trying to get you to take sides and damaging your relationship with him.

Have you talked to him other than about your mum since this has all happened? Arranged to go for lunch with him and SIL without your mum and say you won't mention her if he won't? Tried to build a relationship with DB that's separate from your mum's one with him? It might be the best move for you to start having a sibling relationship that's independent from your mum, and show SIL that you aren't all 'hard work' people in yoru family who'll talk about her like she's rubbish.

This is a bit of a drip feed re your brother's autism: at first you only said he is a man and you can't expect more of men.

I think you are desperately trying to spare your own feelings here through laying all the responsibility on your SIL. The truth is, whatever your brother's shortcomings, he is responsible for his relationship with his mother, his wife is not his keeper, if he cannot make it work it will not work.

I have had this in my own family: my mother desperately trying to lay the blame for everything she doesn't approve of on her DILs rather than her sons, even when I know they are things that my brothers have insisted on and that their wives are not actually all that happy with.

We are a very close knit family and I suppose this makes us frightened of any cracks: so much easier to pretend that anything untoward comes from outside the family unit.

"It's hard to see your mum cry and say things like 'he doesn't care about me', 'he never visits' etc,"

I'm sure it is hard.

But really it's for your Mum & brother to sort out.

And tbh, if she has said horrible things to/about SIL in the guise of "home truths"-how might that have made your brother feel?

Your mum sounds increasingly like a self centred drama queen. If you can see that your brother loves her but isn't bothered about seeing her due to mild autism why can't your mum?
I still don't see how SIL is stopping your brother from phoning or visiting his mum if he wanted to. He doesn't want to. Your mum should apologise for upsetting the couple and get on with her own life not fuss about being visited and visiting people.
She should phone the house not more than once a week, on an evening when her son will be in and leave a pleasant chatty message on the answerphone if he's not in. She could send him the occasional chatty email updating him on what she has done (it's highly unlikely an autistic bloke would not use the computer) and email it on an evening when he is more likely to see it. The emails and phone calls should not be of the "poor me why do you never visit" variety though. She does need to get on with other stuff in her life.

Well I asked if IWBU about my feeling about them snubbing her: I'm not is the general consensus.

Should I intervene? No seems to be the answer so I won't UNLESS it's to help draft a grovelling letter for mum.