to want to stand atop a high building and yell "YOUR DOG IS NOT TRYING TO DOMINATE YOU!" so that all othe dog owners in the land hear meme?

[poachedeggs]

/facedesk

I don't think we fundamentally disagree. 90% of my interactions with dog are positive - she has excellent recall because for six months I was waving bits of ham around the park. But for 10% of situations I have exploited her fear of my raised voice and isolation and I think it has worked very well. I have a well behaved, loving playful dog.

Can I ask a totally unrelated question here because there seems to be a lot of knowledge floating in these here parts.

I have a very intelligent, well behaved dog. He's obsessed with the ball/stick and only really interested in his own family. If visitors come into the house, he's mildly interested and then slopes off to the couch in the front room (which has become his bed).

Just over a year ago, we adopted a toddler who is very active. Our dog really does not like her. From his point of view, I can totally understand why. She moves fast, is unpredictable and has the potential to hurt him. Twice, he has growled at her when he's been on the couch and she's gone near him. Do I need to worry? He acts very afraid when she's around. We look after our neighbour's dog when they're away and she is completely chilled out around our daughter.

Any advice on how to make him not afraid of her?

And just to boast a little, I can leave food on the floor and my dog won't touch it if I leave the room although he will pinch prawns or cheese off the kitchen unit though or steal truffles out of my handbag

at that age happy, i would just keep them apart unless very closely supervised.

keep all interactions calm and pleasant. keep the dog behind a baby gate when the toddler is having her mad half hour, keep the dogs side of the baby gate the best place to be in the whole world using food, comfy beds and bones.

Happyasapiginshite - what you want to do is get him to associate her with good things, but to be honest I think you should get expert advice from a behaviouralist who can base it on having actually met your dog.

I don't have any advice re toddler - not ever had that situation - it don't ever leave them unsupervised while you are waiting for some better advice. I understand a growl is a warning, which a small child is unlikely to heed.

I should confess that him not pinching food that we leave on the floor such as biscuits and things is a pure fluke, we never trained him, he just doesn't take them.

Aaaaaaah dogs.

Beloved freeloaders.

If being a natural leader is based on sucessfully getting any canine creature to understand

"Fuck off Fuzzball, that's my motherfucking Rich Tea"

Than I am off right now to 10 Downing Street to Alpha Roll the shit out of Mr Cameron and then shit in Mr Cleggs slippers, because I am the leader, oh yes.

YAsoNBU

I had a lecture at university 10 years ago about "The Dominance Myth" it's amazing how the theory lingers on.

In an individual interaction one dog may be described as dominant over another but it is not accurate to describe a relationship between animals as dominant. For example, there are two dogs. Fat dog is big strong and healthy, Hungry dog is small thin and starving. You would, following the dominance theory, expect that if they came across some food together Fat dog would get the food. Actually what would most likely happen is that Hungry dog would get it. Why? Because they would be prepared to be injured to get it. It is important to them that they eat. Fat dog doesn't need the food enough to risk getting injured to get it so will be quite happy to let hungry dog have it without a fight. The same two dogs approach a doorway together. There's no particular urgency to get to the other side for either of them. Hungry dog will probably let fat dog go first. Why not. All this will be done consensually, not through one exerting force over the other. There will have been some communication, but no force. All dogs would be fighting All The Time if that was how they worked and they don't (looks at aged heap of snoring fur on the floor who has never fought in his life).

If you do nothing else watch this video, this is the guy who coined the phrase "Alpha male/female":
www.davemech.org/news.html

More reading:
doggonesafe.blogspot.co.uk/2009/04/wolf-packdominance-myth.html
www.woofology.com/alpha%20myth.html

If that's not enough reading to convince you then google "dominance myth" there is reams and reams of information out there.

Thanks for the replies. It's the only thorn in the rose that is our dd. The dog is actually depressed since she came. I do get her to give him pieces of ham etc and he's very gentle taking stuff from her hand. He's just smart. He knows she could hurt him in a flash. He mostly stays in the front room while she's awake and comes back into the kitchen when she's gone to bed. I don't let dd into the front room when he's there cos I figure he needs a 'safe place.' It's been a long time since the growls, maybe 6 months ago, but I'd never heard him growl before. I'm hoping that when she's a bit older, he'll get over his fear.

It's probably not all fear - he may feel a bit displaced, is getting different/less attention since she came. Hopefully he will get used to it.

This may to be a helpful analogy - but when I got my dog it took a year for the cats to come downstairs and sit on the sofa when dog was in the room. It's not exactly super harmonious, they will lie in wait on stairs and slap her bum occasionally, but at least they will now be in the same room together without yowling and growling. So it can get better.

Just marking my place so I can read some of this fascinating stuff (and Dooins incredible cut and past post) tomorrow.

I thought the growls were a recent development... Tbh it sounds like you've got a handle on it, nice supervised interactions and separate space for the dog.

It might be worth getting a behaviourist just to get a second opinion anyway.

Happyasapiginshite I was about to link to the APBC but I've been beaten to it. Please get help. A fearful dog is a worry.

Anyway I am going to bed - yet another case of this happening

If anyone is concerned I rule my child and dog by fear and beatings, I would just like to point out that I now have child AND bloody dog in my bed, giving me a princely 10% of the duvet so am seriously considering upping the fear quotient tomorrow so at least I will get the bloody bed back.

Good night all, thanks for an interesting discussion.

We were just talking about this at work today and about positive training and people were saying why don't you just tell your dog to shut up or no stop that and was trying to explain my reasons
Showed them you tube videos on training mice, parrots, cats and chickens with clickers and that you don't have to dominate or shout at animals to train them.
Why is it only dogs we ascribe the dominance theory to.
When a cat goes out the door first we don't think this is world domination although they perhaps already have it.
Best book somebody gave me when I got my new dog was by John Bradshaw - in defence of dogs.

Just read that article, thanks.

He's curled up beside me here on the couch now. Spero, I think he is feeling displaced. Before she came, we/he had a very predictable life where he had his walks at set times, he was in the middle of the family. He gets on great with our 12 year old and all his friends. And then we all disappear for 3 weeks ( he stayed with friends who he's stayed with lots of times before but only for short stays ) and we bring back a howling toddler.

I understand why he's feeling sorry for himself, I feel sorry for him too. But I just want to get them to like each other. Because they're both really lovely!

We're in Ireland, by the way, and I've never heard of pet behaviourists here but I'm off to google now.
Poodletip, I totally agree. I'm afraid because he's afraid.

Happy, I've asked mnMN delete the post with the link in it because i haven't got permission to share it (naughty). So copy and paste it! Also,vet prospective
behaviourists carefully to ensure they don't use harsh, outdated techniques. You want things like'non aversive', positive, rewarding mentioned lots. Run for the hills and save yourself the wasted cash if you hear packs or dominance mentioned.

An interesting discussion, OP, and I've had a day which has illustrated different ends of it. I went with a friend tonight to see Mary Ray - she was demonstrating how she trains her dogs. Mary has several collies, a lurcher, a Chi and a Sheltie. She has won numerous awards/competitions for obedience, agility and pioneered HTM (she regularly appears at Crufts). Mary is interesting because she has been in dog training for over 35 years and by her own admission is a "crossover". She started out doing what you might call traditional obedience training, but then about 12 years ago discovered clicker and like many of us went WOW! Now she trains her dogs to the most amazing levels using clicker and positive methods. While certain posters here are famous for their ability to control their dog using their raised eyebrow, Mary is a terrific example of the fun and positive way dogs learn and can put together really sophisticated routines/behaviour. For me the proof really is in the pudding - clicker is quicker. On a personal note, I took one of our greyhounds to KC Gold CGC Award the year before last - a positive trainer but not clicker - I enjoyed it but it was hard work at times. Now I'm doing clicker with one of our foster bitches - we are flying at class - she loves it and it's just so much easier.

This morning, I was in a meeting with other rescue people with the Welsh Government to discuss proposed changes to legislation around Dog Control. One of the most eloquent speakers in the room was from a local rescue who described that many of the dogs who are relinquished are ones where their owners have tried dominance based theories to manage unwanted behaviours, and not surprisingly have found the problems have not improved or sadly have even worsened. Wales is looking to make some very interesting changes with regard to dogs but around that table today everyone (including vets, civil servants etc) were strongly in favour of promoting positive methods of training. OP, as a vet, I can only imagine some of what you see and how frustrating it must be.

I just googled pet behaviourists in Ireland and the industry is not regulated so anyone can set themselves up as a pet behaviourist. I might call to the local vet and see if she can recommend someone.

I'll copy and paste the link, thanks. I'm glad I posted this now. DH thinks it'll all be fine in the long run because our dog used to be like this with the youngest child of our friends, the ones who mind him when we go away. He's fine with her now (she's 5 now) so dh thinks it's the same thing again, and just wait til dd grows up a bit and gets a bit of sense. I just would rather we got it sorted now so we can all be happy and relaxed in the house together.

I would love government level recognition of this stuff, Scuttle. I just want people to understand

Happy, just beware that a vet recommendation isn't always a guarantee of quality. I'm working with a dog just now which had spent 9 months in rescue waiting for someone brave enough to take him on with his record of aggression. Aggression which developed after a vet told his previous owners that when he destroyed their home (he was left for 9 hours six days a week ) he was being dominant.

The alpha theory has been debunked - by the beloved Mech himself.

I love all this stuff though. Reminds me why I am alive. That poor dog, poached - left for NINE hours! I would have destroyed their home and pooed in the sink!