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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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to want to stand atop a high building and yell "YOUR DOG IS NOT TRYING TO DOMINATE YOU!" so that all othe dog owners in the land hear meme?

181 replies

poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 19:25

/facedesk

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ChickensHaveNoEyebrows · 19/02/2013 20:37

My dog is dominating me right now by lying across my laptop demanding tummy rubs. The adorable, dominating bastard.

trashcanjunkie · 19/02/2013 20:53

my dp's dog is doing what I like to call a bit of performance snoring on his bed, as I won't allow him to dominate the sofa Grin

HerrenaHarridan · 19/02/2013 21:06

There are nine actual references attached to that long and eloquent article. One is referring to Richard Dawkins talking about human behaviour, 4 reference the same bloke, 2 support the "pack theory" and 2 call for more research.

While I'm no advocate of beating your dog I just don't buy this not dominance based thing.
I have grown up with lots of dogs, worked with lots of dogs and helped a lot of rescue dogs overcome major issues.
Things like always eating before you feed your dog can be incredibly useful tools in retraining where bad behaviour is already learned.
Mostly it shouldn't be necessary.

Some dogs will be impossible to live with if allowed on sofas. Some are fine.

It very much depends on personality both of dog and owner

flatbread · 19/02/2013 21:25

Very well said, Herrena

DreamingOfTheMaldives · 19/02/2013 21:27

My dogs behaviour starts to go downhill when we let him on the sofa. His recall isn't as good, he barks more at the door, his 'stays' aren't as good. The only thing which has changed to cause this is him being alloeed on the sofa (when invites). Seems to be that if I give him an inch he takes a mile!

D0oinMeCleanin · 19/02/2013 21:38

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poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 21:42

Herrena, with respect to your experience in this area, I am a practising vet and I personally interact with over 30 different dogs, many of which are anxious, fearful, painful or unwell, on any working day. The vast majority of behavioural issues are actually worsened by the application of rank reduction techniques. The overwhelming majority of aggressive incidents result from fear and anxiety.

Bradshaw, Blackwell and Casey's 2009 paper www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878(08)00115-9/abstract discusses the idea of dominance as a personality trait in detail and concludes that it is not helpful or appropriate to apply this construct, which is inherently relevant, to individual animals. Feral dogs do not even live within firm pack structures. They are opportunistic scavengers and show little co-operative behaviour. So it's ludicrous to suggest that they would interpret any of our behaviour in terms of a pack.

Dogs do what works for them to get what they need. That's why a dog which has anxiety about food resources growls to warn you off its bowl. It isn't dominating you. It's telling you, the only way it has available to it, to back off. If you don't like that behaviour you can modify it easily by adding food to an empty bowl so the dog learns you bring food, you don't take it away, and then you can all live happily. Conversely if you subscribe to the dominance bunkum you'd frighten, threaten or hurt the dog until it no longer expressed its negative feelings around food, probably getting bitten in the process, also elevating fear which inhibits learning. It's a lose lose situation.

Who do something the bad way if you can do it the kind way and get just as good, or usually better results?

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poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 21:43

Took me too long to type that last post Dooin - you hero! Grin

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Punkatheart · 19/02/2013 21:44

I work with wolves - as some of you know. So much dominance theory has been discredited or is being challenged - by those of us actually observing behaviour. Don't get me started on the wolf-dog comparative obsessive. Good luck to ANYONE who thinks that dominating a wolf to be the leader will end well.

For a different slant:

Toni Shelbourne 'The Truth About Dogs and Wolves.'

Letting the dog on the sofa will not mean the end of mankind as we know it. It will just mean a happy dog.

D0oinMeCleanin · 19/02/2013 21:45

i can't type well atm but i can still copy and paste Grin

poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 21:45

Re the sofa, Dreaming you are attributing your dog with a heck of a lot of gumption. Dogs live in the moment and there is categorically no way that being allowed on the sofa at 8pm one evening will affect its recall the following day. That is not logical or rational. There are other factors here, I can assure you.

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Punkatheart · 19/02/2013 21:46

Have you read Toni's book, poached? She is very much in agreement with your excellent post. Know your animal and try and empathise...so much better than this dominant, macho, cracked nonsense.....

Punkatheart · 19/02/2013 21:48

Oops arse over tit - The Truth about Wolves and Dogs.

ChickensHaveNoEyebrows · 19/02/2013 21:50

Punk, you work with wolves?! Coooooooool

My dog has finished dominating the laptop. He is now dominating the sofa and DH by snoring and farting with abandon.

poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 21:55

That one's on my to do list, Punk, but I will get them all under my belt eventually!

It astonishes me how firmly people will cling to their beliefs.

I entered the veterinary world with no knowledge beyond what I'd seen of Barbara Woodhouse on TV and observation of my parents' interactions with family pets. I had a rude awakening when I posted on a forum for advice about a dog I was fostering and one of my comments was seized upon by many of the members who took pains to enlighten me that this wasn't how we do things any more. I moved on from there through Jean Donaldson, Karen Pryor, Pamela Dennison and Karen Overall and was horrified and astonished at how much we know about dog behaviour, yet how little of it permeates the public consciousness thanks to Cesar Whats-his-prongcollar and the like.

I encounter people on a daily basis, often coming to me with overt behavioural problems, who insist that they are "pack leader". Why is there a problem then? There's a problem because their dogs are living in fear, anxiety ad confusion.

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saintmerryweather · 19/02/2013 21:57

my dog is also dominating the sofa. next, the world

poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 21:58

My dogs dominate a sofa each (while DH and I huddle on a beanbag - we know our place) Wink

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Spero · 19/02/2013 22:01

I treat my dog as I would a small child. She comes on the sofas for lots of cuddles but when she did stuff like knick my biscuit or wee on the rug she got very firmly told off and she didn't do it again. She is generally desparate to please.

So I don't 'dominate' her in that I beat or constantly shout. She gets praise when she is good and told off when she is bad. Which is now rare.

But I do 'dominate' in that I am boss and she knows it - no one touches my biscuit. Maybe people are just confused by terminology? I don't see how dog owning (or parenting) works unless you are clearly in charge and have boundaries.

poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 22:04

My dogs steal my biscuits. That's not because they are naughty. It's because they are dogs, they like food, and I have left it within their reach.

I could train them to only eat biscuits on command but it's easier not to leave biscuits lying around.

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flatbread · 19/02/2013 22:04

Some of the arguments here are way too cultish and draws on a strawman theory of 'dominance'

Hierarchy is not the same as dominance. Most pack animals, including humans, need hierarchy to establish order. We see it within families and within our work environment

For dogs we are their family and workplace at the same time. If there is a lack of structure, inconsistent boundaries and a leadership vacuum, they will be anxious.

Most dogs don't want to be pack leaders. But they understand someone has to control resources and make decisions. If they see you are not doing it, they will get anxious. On the other hand, if you are a calm, consistent leader, your dog will be happy knowing its place in the family/work hierarchy

It is really not that complicated

poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 22:06

Spero, it's not about being in charge - more about showing leadership, working out what motivates the dog and then using that to teach the dog to do what you need it to.

It's like, if it's run off for a while, but you give it a treat when you call it back to you, it will want to come back in future. If it's run off for a while and you give it a yelling or a kick, it won't want to come back in future. Why would it?!

You can show leadership, teach, coax - you don't need to "dominate" or admonish.

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flatbread · 19/02/2013 22:06

Cross-posted with Spero

poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 22:07

For the love of god flatbread, you sound like Jan fucking Fennell. Nobody actually believes that particular fantasty do they?

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poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 22:08

And flatbread, dogs are not truly pack animals.

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Punkatheart · 19/02/2013 22:10

Even some wolves want life alone. Pack be damned.