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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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to want to stand atop a high building and yell "YOUR DOG IS NOT TRYING TO DOMINATE YOU!" so that all othe dog owners in the land hear meme?

181 replies

poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 19:25

/facedesk

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Spero · 19/02/2013 22:10

I can't see a useful distinction between 'being a leader' and 'being in charge'.

I don't 'leave biscuits laying around' I have them on a plate next to my cup of coffee and any dog who thinks that's easy pickings will learn they aren't.

I accept my dog is not trying to 'dominate' me but if I had left her behaviours as a puppy unchecked - stealing food, incontinence in house - we would not be able to live in house together.

I have a happy well trained dog, which got that way because I dominate her.i am in charge. I struggle to see the issue.

PessaryPam · 19/02/2013 22:13

flatbread your post expresses my opinion on this matter. I have seen the result of bad 'parenting' by overindulgence on my dogs puppy that went to a couple of old ladies many years ago. They failed to provide a consistent framework for the dog and he became a biter and they had him PTS. My Mum cried when she found out because he was fine with us and they should have returned him to us and we would have sorted him out. He a was a lovely natured apricot miniature poodle and they turned him bad Sad

Spero · 19/02/2013 22:13

And of course I don't dominate by hitting or kicking. I have used a very firm very loud voice and that got results.

I agree with flatbread. I am not bothered about figuring out my dog or my child's motivation when they do something appalling or dangerous. I stop them doing it, explain why it must happen again and what the consequences will NE.

Obviously rather a lot less words when dealing with dog. Who is currently snoring and farting on end of bed in cunning world domination plan.

poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 22:18

It's about modifying behaviour to make it acceptable to us. Nobody is debating that dogs shouldn't be shitting in the hall. But there are ways of modifying that behaviour.

Taking the "dominance" approach, you say for example "any dog who thinks that's easy pickings will learn they aren't". I am uncomfortable with this - what did you do to teach her not to take them? You did something to make her frightened so she wouldn't eat them - she is a dog, dogs have not got reason, they just have needs, the most powerful of which is food. Do not leave food lying around and expect a dumb (in the literal sense) animal to leave it alone. That's like standing in front of a charging elephant and expecting it to listen you you asking it to "please desist". They act on their natural instincts.

Taking the scientific approach you would see that a dog has a natural desire for food, so you would firstly stop increasing the dog's baseline anxiety by leaving food around and then inexplicably forbidding it to touch the food, and then start a programme of teaching the dog that by leaving the biscuits they can eventually gain a more desirable reward, such as a piece of chicken. But this takes ages and is boring so I don't leave my biscuits lying around.

Modify problem behaviours. Don't have unreasonably high expectations of an animal which has not got our powers of logic or reasoning. Don't abuse their good nature by misinterpreting their normal behaviours as naughty, dominant or wilful.

OP posts:
WorraLiberty · 19/02/2013 22:18

Errmm yes, no, maybe?

I've asked my dog what he thinks and he actually gave you all a...

::Head tilt:: Grin

Spero · 19/02/2013 22:20

And you seem to have conveniently overlooked the part where I said I praise good behaviour. She is rarely told off now as she rarely crosses boundaries but she must get heaps of ear ruffles, 'good dogs' and belly scratches. Not to mention a bit of my biscuit that she no longer tries to snaffle.

I think living with dogs when you are not firmly in charge of them must be hellish for you and them.

baskingseals · 19/02/2013 22:21

i usually share any food i am eating with my dog - he will ignore food the children have left on low tables unless i tell him it's okay to eat it. i have not consciously trained him to do this though.

Spero · 19/02/2013 22:23

I had balanced a biscuit on my chest for reasons now I can't recall, dog leapt from floor and took it in her mouth, digging her sharp claws into my chest.

Damn right I scared her. I shouted 'bad dog' and gave her five minute time out alone in kitchen. She has never done it again and I am buggered if I am spending hours on behaviour modification when that has done the trick.

baskingseals · 19/02/2013 22:24

i do think if i was in the wild with my dog he would share his rabbits with me.

so i share with him.

poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 22:25

Worra Grin

The thing about living with dogs you are "not firmly in charge of" is that it is an absolute pleasure to know that every single thing they do, they do out of willingness and not because when they last did X they got yelled at or when they last did Y they got a smack on the nose. They have been taught better, more appropriate behaviours which they are happy and willing to perform instead, and we all live harmoniously. :)

Spero it sounds to me like you have a great basis for a positively trained dog there but she must fear you or verbal admonishment wouldn't work. Is that how you feel about your children - they need to fear you? Because dogs have no concept of respect. It's either fear, suspicion or love.

Much as I hate comparing dogs to children because it naturally leads to dogs being ascribed abilities they don't have, it always concerns me that people come out with this "spare the rod ..." stuff about their dogs and then I wonder about their kids.

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poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 22:26

OK Spero, I take your good example of the biscuit. And as I have said, I really couldn't be arsed to train my dogs not to eat biscuits. But let's take this further - what if your dog growled at you when you went near her bowl? What would you do?

OP posts:
Binkyridesagain · 19/02/2013 22:27

My dog had 6 years of being 'put in her place', she came to me fearful and anxious, she is never shouted at or dominated because it wouldn't work with her and would set her back. 6 months of hard work and a hell of a lot of patience, she is a very content happy dog who for the first time, I believe, feels safe. She still has some issues but that is because she doesn't understand how to behave, these issues I'm sure will be sorted in time, using distraction.
She knows her place, its right next to me.

flatbread · 19/02/2013 22:29

What fantasy?

And again you suffer from a misconception. Admonish is not the same as dominate.

There is place for positive reinforcement and for correction. They are not mutually exclusive. Leadership and parenting involves both incentives and correction. Used fairly and consistently.

Sone dogs are very easy-going and obedient. Some are harder work. Like Henrietta said, it depends on the dog and the owner.

No point in getting all fanatical and militant about this.

Spero · 19/02/2013 22:31

No. She emphatically doesn't fear me. I don't think I would wake up with her under the duvet stealing my pillow if she feared me.

The worst I have done is shouted and given her time out - for what I considered really bad or dangerous behaviour. I haven't had to admonish her like that for nearly 8 months now.

I think she feels comfortable that I am in charge, same as with my daughter. I have clear consistent rules which I apply consistently and I always recognise and praise good behaviour.

But I am in charge. I have to be. A dog and an 8 year old dont always know what is best for them or what is safe. So as far as I am concerned I 'dominate' my household. I just wonder if people are getting confused by terminology.

'Dominating' by fear and physical coercion - always wrong and destructive. But 'dominating' with clear rules and boundaries - essential I think.

D0oinMeCleanin · 19/02/2013 22:32

i like to believe i have an understanding with my dogs, rather than a utilitarian leadership.

i understand not to mess with their food because no good will come of it and they understand not to steal from my plate because it is not rewarding. they come back to me on the understanding that they might get hotdogs or games. equally i let them off to run because i find watching them have fun rewarding.

poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 22:32

I am neither fanatical or militant, I am tired, so tired, of seeing the miserable outcomes when "pack theory" is applied to a species for which it so clearly doesn't fit the bill. Anxious, frightened dogs, cowering away from me in a corner of the room while their owners yank their leads and snap at them for growling. It's thoroughly depressing and entirely avoidable if the basic principles of dog behaviour and socialisation are applied properly.

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Spero · 19/02/2013 22:35

If my dog growled at me when I went near her bowl I would be very concerned as she has never done this. I would first take her to the bet to check she didn't have any health issues, soreness round mouth etc. if there was nothing immediately wrong I would just try to stay away for her bowl of it was upsetting her. But if I thought she was becoming aggressive I would get urgent advice. I agree shouting doesn't help in a situation like that.

But when she rang out of park last year and nearly under a car I shouted a lot. She had ten minutes alone in kitchen and then she crawled across the floor into my lap and I cried and hugged her. She had never repeated that behaviour either.

Punkatheart · 19/02/2013 22:35

I think the militant comes from anger - watching animals who have been dominated and become fearful and depressed. Blinky has a perfect example....how lucky that her poor dog finally found such a lovely owner.

Rescue centres - some of which are full to capacity - have lots of these poor dogs, the result of macho owners.

Dominant does imply aggressive in the wrong context.

poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 22:35

And to be fair, for many dog-owner relationships, the owner gets away with their pack theory ideas because their dog is good-natured enough and forgiving enough.

But there are a significant number of situations where problems arise, either directly due to the owner's misconstrued ideas about hierarchies or for other reasons, and the poor dogs are the ones which suffer.

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poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 22:38

Spero you are demonstrating what I mean about dogs and children not being comparable. Putting your dog in the kitchen for ten minutes, half an hour after she ran away from you, is as pointless as putting an 18 month old child in the kitchen for ten minutes, after it happened, apart from the child has at least a fragment of hope of understanding you explaining it to them in words.

Dogs live in the here and now. They learn by association. She cannot have associated a ten minute time out after the event with her running off.

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D0oinMeCleanin · 19/02/2013 22:38

spero, dogs don't understand being sorry nor do they have the mental capacity to relate one incident with another that passed some time ago.

your dog crawled to you after you let her out to appease you, because she could sense that you were angry and she feared you. it was not because she was sorry for scaring you.

i'm not suggesting you beat her btw, to some dogs being yelled at is the end of the world. my own would rather chew off her own tail than stay and be yelled at.

Spero · 19/02/2013 22:39

I agree a lot of harm is done by authoritarian approaches rather than authorative - there is a big difference buti wonder if people get muddled between the two.

I saw a woman berate her Alsatian for about 20 mins in local park 'you are not the boss! I am etc, etc. I couldn't see what on earth he had done wrong and I found it very distressing to watch, but too much of a wimp to intervene.

Butit its cold and I want to go home, I expect my dog to come when called and if she didn't I am quite happy to be in charge of that decision and take her. S I clearly dominate in that respect.

poachedeggs · 19/02/2013 22:40

And this lack of understanding of the mechanism by which dogs learn is at the heart of the problem. People are happy to accept pack theory and look no further. By developing an understanding of the motivations a dog has, and understanding how a dog learns, you can explain their behaviour more readily and modify it more gently. And you don't have to do pointless stuff like eat crackers and think up punishments for when you get home.

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BlatantLies · 19/02/2013 22:40

Punkatheart. Wow, that must be amazing. I think wolves are incredibly beautiful and a bit creepy too. What type of wolves do you work with?

Sorry but its only a little derail

highriggs · 19/02/2013 22:40

With you binky same age of dog and same problems and would never shout or try to dominate her. Why would people want to do this horrible dominating stuff to dogs and it only seems they want to do it to dogs. Makes me feel quite queasy to see bullying justified.
They are dogs not maniac despots plotting to take over your life because they go out the door first.

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