To expect mums to get their children vaccinated?

[againagain]

Met two mums at play group today who said they didn't/weren't. Their reasons were autism, all that stuff on the Internet, drugs companies making money and keeping their children 'clean'. WTF?? Am I right in thinking their kids are safe though because 'the herd' is immunised? I just think there's a certain mother type who thinks anything 'non-natural' or scientific is wrong. Rant over

Well, you'll be pleased to know then that I am not a "liberal". It's not a question of knowing best but one of protecting others' rights to an education which you seem keen to trample on. Children who are immuno-supressed are just as entitled to an education - unfortuantely they have no choice in the matter.

Unfortunately, there are indeed people out there like Lauren Booth, although I personally tend not to rely on the Daily Mail for my information (is the Guardian preferable ). It is a rather

Do you have any statistics to back up your claim that homeschooling in the US is dramatically more than in the UK (and that this is due to vaccination)? Sounds pretty outlandish to me.

'They' probably won't introduce compulsory vaccination in the UK, it's not a very British thing to do. I think it's a shame.

Actually I think the Lauren Booth example is quite enlightening. She hears 'formaldehyde' and 'mercury' and decides that they sound too scary. I think that reprsents quite well a large number of parents who do not vaccinate. In fact, the amount of formaldehyde used is very small and quite harmless and there is no mercury in pediatric vaccines (and what was there previously was in a form that is harmless and the body can excrete). Stupid woman.

It always surprises me how much rage there is against parents who feel they have very good reasons for not vaccinating their babies, all this how dare you put my vaccinated so presumably safe child at risk!, yet the same people completely ignore the thousands of people who are here illegally from God-knows-where, carrying God-knows-what diseases.
But it's easier to pick on concerned parents, much more PC.
I'm certainly not 'lording it' over people who have vaccinated. I don't want my child to be ill any more than they do theirs. I say lucky them that their child hasn't had a bad reaction to a jab that makes them nervous of giving them any more. Lucky them that they don't have cause to regret the ones that they have already given.

' It's not a question of knowing best but one of protecting others' rights to an education which you seem keen to trample on.'

If you are happy to take the vaccinations then go ahead, but don't try to scare or blackmail others by scaremongering to do so if they disagree with you.

If you want schools where every child is vaccinated, then create segregated schools with vaccinated and unvaccinated children, but don't force all children to be vaccinated against their parents' wishes. Then we will see in which schools children end up catching mumps etc.

''They' probably won't introduce compulsory vaccination in the UK, it's not a very British thing to do.'

I bet a lot of the 'liberals' would love to try it, but they know that there wil be opposition from the people, so they won't do it. Instead they will use education programmes and leaflets etc.

Sorry, your use of 'they' and "liberal" is quite amusing Claig and I think it reveals a lot about your thought processes and world view.

It's not scaring or blackmailing. If you are allowing unvaccinated children to go to school, then you are putting children who cannot be vaccinated at risk (as well as a small number of vaccinated children for whom the vaccine did not work).

It's really not that hard to work out and I think it's very unfair on those children who are equally entitled to an education.

That was quite a xenophobic post, pixel.

It's not about being PC or not. It's about protecting those children who are unable to have the vaccines. They are usually the ones who would be worst affected if they caught any of these diseases anyway.

Maybe so, but when dd was small (17 yrs ago) I was chatting to the HV about vaccinations and she told me they no longer did TB. I asked if that was wise what with all the immigration and she was shocked that I dared to say it and said that no it wasn't a risk.
Then I read this on this very thread:-
We could look at Tb. I presume most of us here are of an age to have been innoculated as a matter of course. We don;'t now, and lo! it's on the increase by virtue of immigration.

Not immigration. On the increase because they stopped immunising against it and because they is more international travel.

Stuff I read at the time seemed to voice concerns over giving the three vaccines in one injection, hence my choice to go for single vaccines.

And of course science is all about learning, but mistakes are made. If there are concerns, and there is an alternative (ie single vaccines) that is the choice I made.

YANBU at all. Vaccinations are the greatest public health advancement in centuries and the benefits to herd immunity should never be under estimated.

Actually pixel is right. Immigration has impacted on TB levels in the UK.
I'm a health care worker and have seen it quite often.

Thank you glossy

So not because we don't routinely vaccinate against anymore then? That wouldn't have anything to do with it?

We've always had large amounts of people from other countries here.

It's probably a number of factors.

The vaccination was not very effective and also the chance of people in the general population being exposed to TB was very small so it wasn't really worth it to vaccinate the whole population.

My guess would be that the increase in TB is caused by:
a) HIV/AIDS
b) increased international travel
c) increased drug resistance so if you get it, you may find it harder to get rid of it
d) immigration (it could be if more people are coming for countries where it's prevalent or they are mixing more with general pop)
e) no more routine vaccination of children

My mums cousin caught measles at the age of 3 in the 40's before vaccination were available. Prior to this she was described as ridiculously bright and the most beautiful child many people had ever seen. It left her so badly brain damaged that it was impossible to care for her at home and she lived in a hospital for the rest of her life... over 40 years.
My children are vaccinated, every child in our extended family is vaccinated, My eldest got a ridiculously high temperature after one but I still took him back for the rest and had my daughter vaccinated.
Other parents are entitled to their point of view... but I don't think they truely know the gamble they are taking with there children's lives.

I'm not saying immigration is the only factor, but it is a factor. No need to call people xenophobic for saying so when it is fact.
In the 1980's TB in the UK was just about irradicated. Since the 90's it's been on the increase.
I'm sure stopping vaccinating children is partly to do with it but in my experience 95% of people I see with TB are not UK nationals. The other 5% are but had TB at a young age before vaccinations came out.
It also is partly due to overcrowded living. Now I don't know about where you guys live but where I live there are so many houses of multiple occupancy and they are almost alway migrant workers living there.

I can understand people's reticence but really - statistically there is more likely to be harm to your child from not vaccinating than from vaccinating. This is enough for me. Nothing is without risk - it's weighing up the risks. And that's without mentioning herd immunity/protecting babies, children who are immuno-suppressed, pregnant women and the like.
It's a no brainer for me. But parents who don't vaccinate often have very real concerns and they need to be addressed, not dismissed.

going back to the beginning, the reasons these women gave were:

• causes autism: long disproved
• all that stuff on the internet; yes, well, monkeys with keyboards are bound to be more informed than people who spend years at medical school and many more years researching
• drug companies making money: too stupid an excuse to bother with
• keeping their children clean; by letting them suffer with preventable diseases?

if only there was a competence test before breeding. And I do like the idea of separate schools for vaccinated and non-vaccinated children, although I think the children who cannot be vaccinated for health reasons should be allowed to go to the former.

no smallpox now. How did that happen?

I've said this before but I have a bit of a bugbear about people talking about "researching" vaccinations.

Unless you have a PhD in Immunology you haven't done any research into vaccines. You've spent a few hours reading stuff (probably dumbed down for laypeople) on the Internet.

Make the decision but don't pretend like you're doing so from anything but ignorance. People who have devoted distinguished careers to the field are unanimously in favour of vaccines.

After doing some research I decided my daughter should have her vaccines but it wasn't a decision I came across lightly. Mercury was my biggest worry so I don't think parents are stupid when they won't get their kids vaccinated. I do personally think the pro's heavily outweigh the con's though and I don't like the pressure medical professionals are willing to apply to parents without explaining ALL the risks involved.

By "research" I mean homework Hold.

What kind of qualifications do you have in medicine, immunology, or public health, to make any "homework" meaningful?

How were you able to inform yourself better than the medical councils of basically every first world nation?

But Chelsea, there isn't any mercury in childhood vaccinations

hold your opinion on people not knowing anything about vaccinations unless you have a degree in immunology is exactly why the general population are worried about it. People feel they are not fully informed about vaccinations, and so do what they can to get to unbiased evidence.
And just because they don't hold relevant qualifications, doesn't mean to say they can't get what information they can and make their own judgement.
People distinguished in their careers who brainless people should go along with, according to you, have their salaries paid for by who??!
You probably don't have a degree in car manufacturing, but you still look at all the reviews, for yourself to chose a car. You wouldn't just have a car because that's the one the salesman wants you to have would you.
And for the record, I personally know a consultant microbiologist, who during the swine flu scare said he would not be happy to have the swine flu vaccine but he kept quiet about his professional opinions at work because he was supposed to be promoting it.
As for the MMR I'm on the fence. I think I will have my children vaccinated but reluctantly.

People distinguished in their careers who brainless people should go along with, according to you, have their salaries paid for by who??!

This is conspiracy theory nonsense.

There is nothing "brainless" about following standard medical advice (the way you do if you were diagnosed with cancer or diabetes) and recognising that the qualifications needed to decide optimum medical treatment are beyond most people (for reasons of time moreso than intelligence).