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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To expect mums to get their children vaccinated?

271 replies

againagain · 13/02/2013 20:17

Met two mums at play group today who said they didn't/weren't. Their reasons were autism, all that stuff on the Internet, drugs companies making money and keeping their children 'clean'. WTF?? Am I right in thinking their kids are safe though because 'the herd' is immunised? I just think there's a certain mother type who thinks anything 'non-natural' or scientific is wrong. Rant over

OP posts:
saintlyjimjams · 16/02/2013 08:17

Oh and I should add that in the (mainstream) autism conferences I have attended apparently same researchers have discussed seriously the potential roles of vaccinations in their models (often in a virus or more rarely live vaccination type way). So if you think the issue is dead and buried you are mistaken, although it is true you're unlikely to get a research grant to find direct investigation into autism & vaccinations these days. (Unless funded by a parent I guess - which is what happened with a lot of research into gut issues - now producing interesting results which ds1's neurologist shared with us and suggested we try - 8 years after his first paed ridiculed us for trying the gluten fee diet).

saintlyjimjams · 16/02/2013 08:37

*sane

glossyflower · 16/02/2013 09:00

noble you need to look up on the MMR manufacturer, Merck's website, they have an information page on the MMR the link is posted a few pages back. Then educate yourself on human diploid cells.
There is a laboratory in the US that run lines of these cells taken from several, but two specific in regards to MMR, lung tissue from aborted foetuses.
As for the Catholic Church, they also still cannot advocate fully the use of contraception in the world so why should we care what they think?!

kungfu you are making quite a dangerous statement there. MMR vaccine protects against autism?!
Just on par that the vaccine causes autism.
Research shows there is NO link between the MMR and autism either way.
I would like to know where you have this information from.

The MMR does have ingredients that are allergenic. Neomycin is a major one.

glossyflower · 16/02/2013 09:08

Neomycin. Is an aminoglycoside antibiotic. Is a DNA binder. Causes skin reactions. Strips the intestinal tract of bacteria. You wouldn't know you were allergic to it until you had the MMR. You are very unlikely to have contact with it in normal medicine.

Dawndonna · 16/02/2013 09:29

Fuck, I've never seen such rubbish. Neomycin would have to be given daily to have a significant effect. The same with Streptomycin. The amount received in a vaccine is almost nothing.
Oh, and before anyone starts on me, there are five people in this house with ASDs. The two older ones were around long, long before MMR.

saintlyjimjams · 16/02/2013 09:39

But autism isn't one thing. And five people with autism in the house would very much suggest multiplex autism (where the autism traits have high heritability so you perhaps wouldn't expect an environmental factor to be involved).

Simplex autism inherited very differently.

glossyflower · 16/02/2013 10:50

I was simply stating FACTS so why is that BS?

MoreSnowPlease · 16/02/2013 11:22

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

AmandinePoulain · 16/02/2013 12:27

moresnow if vaccinations don't provide immunity, how am I immune to measles, hepatitis B and rubella (confirmed by blood tests) despite never suffering any of these diseases? Whilst it is true that vaccines don't provide immunity in 100% of people that is exactly why herd immunity is so vital. And as far as I'm aware vaccination programmes have never been mandatory in this country.

noblegiraffe · 16/02/2013 12:33

glossy, I have looked it up. They took cells from an aborted foetus, that was aborted anyway and not for the purposes of research, cultured cell lines from it, and these cell lines reproduce themselves. Vaccines are then cultured in these cells. 50 years is pretty far removed from the original aborted foetus, no?
From the hysterical 'vaccines contain aborted foetus' suggestions, one might well think that scientists were dipping a syringe into the foetus itself and putting a little bit into every vaccine produced.

Whatever your views on abortion, I think it's positive that some good has come out of it. Especially in the case of the rubella vaccine, which has gone on to prevent abortions.

claig · 16/02/2013 12:40

Vaccinations have been mandatory in this country in about the 1850s. A movement of aristocrats and working and middle classes rose to fight it and eventually the authorities had to allow for personal choice and liberty.

It is amazing how strong our ancestors were in their fight against authority and for freedom and choice. Nowadays it is mainly educated middle class people who are in some way anti vaccine and the opposition to vaccines is nowhere near as strong as it once was.

'A number of distinctive features of the anti-vaccination movement emerge from Durbach's fascinating account. She reveals the movement's cross-class character: though some of its leading figures were derived from the upper classes, its activists were largely drawn from the lower middle and respectable working classes (women as well as men). The anti-vaccinationists' rejection of government and medical coercion in relation to health reflected a wider suspicion of state intervention in personal and family affairs. Activists were often also religious dissenters, trade unionists and radicals; they were opponents of vivisection, and supporters of temperance, vegetarianism and alternative medicine. As well as being an effective parliamentary lobby, anti-vaccinationism was a militant mass movement, given to carnivalesque demonstrations and riotous protests.

Here the differences between the nineteenth century movement and contemporary anti-vaccination campaigns are more striking than the superficial parallels noted by Durbach. Though today's anti-vaccinationist campaigns get some support from quirky aristocrats, their base of support is almost exclusively middle class. Activists object to particular vaccines (in Britain mainly MMR, in the USA mainly those containing mercury). They have no objection to state intervention in any other area and, though some favour homeopathy or other alternative therapies, many seek to justify their concerns about vaccine safety with reference to mainstream medical science. Indeed some of the most prominent campaigns are careful to point out that they are not' anti-vaccine' but simply concerned to promote 'informed choice' by parents. However disingenuous this posture may be, it reflects the general defensiveness of current campaigns and the limited scope of their resistance to medical authority. In contrast with the collective campaigns of the past, today's have a strongly individualistic character. Rather than demanding the abandonment of the national immunization programme, they merely request the choice of mercury-free vaccines, or single agents rather than MMR. Campaigns?in reality little more than websites run by a few individuals?provide information (often misleading) and contact details for solicitors pursuing compensation claims for alleged vaccine injuries.'

The Anti-Vaccination Movement in England 1853-1907

But occasionally there are still some calls for mandatory vaccinations from some quarters. However, the authorities are not in favour of those calls today. It is possible that their experience of the 1850s - 1890s is one reason why.

'But in the UK vaccination programmes have relied on persuading and educating parents that immunisation is not only beneficial to their children but to society as a whole.

The BBC has learned, however, through a freedom of information request that the strategic health authority in London asked the government if it could introduce compulsory vaccinations.

Specifically the SHA asked about the "feasibility of requiring an immunisation certificate for measles before children go to school."

In documents seen by the BBC, the Department of Health acknowledges that immunisation rates in London are consistently lower than the rest of the country.

But officials said: "Our strategy is to maintain a voluntary immunisation system and invest efforts in educating parents about the benefits of vaccination and dispelling 'myths' about vaccine safety."

'But, although he sympathises with Sir Sandy's concerns about the possibility of a measles epidemic, Professor Finn believes compulsory vaccination would be counter-productive.

"There is a real risk we would end up with less MMR immunisation not more," he said.

"I think this would be handing a gift to the anti-vaccine lobby, because they would say 'look they can't persuade you it is right, so they are going to have to force you'."

But as fears of a measles epidemic grow, serious questions are now being asked as to whether persuasion on its own is enough.'

Call to make MMR jab mandatory

claig · 16/02/2013 12:44

'The anti-vaccinationists' rejection of government and medical coercion in relation to health reflected a wider suspicion of state intervention in personal and family affairs. Activists were often also religious dissenters, trade unionists and radicals; they were opponents of vivisection, and supporters of temperance, vegetarianism and alternative medicine.'

Amazing how times have changed and whereas then the left were suspicious of state intervention etc., nowadays they are mainly in favour of it.

Kungfutea · 16/02/2013 12:57

glossy
Did you know that in utero exposure to rubella has been shown to be one of the risk factors for autism?

Therefore vaccinating against rubella will reduce the incidence of autism.

Why do you find that dangerous other than the admittedly unpleasant notion that if you are unvaccinated then you are possibly contributing to someone else's autism?

saintlyjimjams · 16/02/2013 12:59

Ds1 caught rubella from a vaccinated child.

saintlyjimjams · 16/02/2013 13:09

Actually flu caught early in pregnancy seems to be associated with autism (and schizophrenia) so it's a bit daft to harass those who don't vaccinate as being responsible for great numbers of autism cases (the numbers of cases of rubella autism even in the old days were small).

The child my son caught rubella from spread it to a few people as the mum didn't realise you could get rubella if you had been vaccinated.,

saintlyjimjams · 16/02/2013 13:44

My point being that it isn't as simple as 'people who vaccinate=good, people who don't=bad'. That's as daft as assuming that mothers of severely autistic kids are saints (notice my nickname - it's a piss take) to be admired for bravely caring for their not wuite human child each day )(unless of course they happen to have an opinion on what happened to their child in which case they are no longer saints but classed indtead as stupid woo-blinded angry, bitter hags just looking for something to blame - mothers only being saints if they keep their mouths shut it seems).

In our case when we thought we had an average child we vaccinated. When we found we didn't my we spoke to medics, read original research (science PhD can cope with that), attended conferences and spoke to researchers about their thoughts, emailed a few others, organised a microarray (on the NHS), discussed ideas with paediatricians and a neurologist (on the NHS), and based out decision on that.

Our aim is not to maim or kill other children, merely to have our younger two grow up to not need 24 hour 1:1 care like their brother.

Of course the idea that we're thick freeloaders is simpler and perhaps more satisfying to those who have never had to consider their child might be at higher risk from a vaccination.

saintlyjimjams · 16/02/2013 13:46

Sorry for typos (phone )

Kungfutea · 16/02/2013 14:22

I was surprised that you thought 'soldiering on' was patronising.
My cousin has a severely autistic son. When I speak to her and ask how things are, the first thing she says (almost invariably) is 'oh, soldiering on'. I shall inform her she is being paronising to herself next time we speak!

Anyway, judging by the responses on this thread, for every parent who may have a valid concern and consider not vaccinating, there are at least 10 who just scream mercury! Formaldehyde! Aborted fetal cells! Brainwashing! Conspiracy! And they are the ones putting everyone's children at risk, especially those who cannot be vaccinated.

saintlyjimjams · 16/02/2013 14:42

Although vaccination rates are higher than they've ever been so no need for hysteria. I know many people who haven't vaccinated - the vadt majority did vaccinate older siblings so presumably have experienced something to make them change their minds. Those who have never vaccinated have always given a coherent account to me rather than screaming 'aborted foetuses' ( although tbh while cell lines derived from foetuses don't particularly bother me I can see why they might offend some. I eat pork, I don't ridicule those who don't).

Yes I did find it patronising. Not the specific words, the tone. Of us toiling away with our dreadful children - selflessly handing over our lives to these beasts. Unless we happen think that our children might have ended up this way from vaccination - then we're just thick and dangerous in case other innocents believe us (please note my son did not regress following MMR so I haven't personally experienced the abuse - my son regressed following a strange reaction to a common virus). The narratives that people come up with re mothers to those with severe autism are rather tiresome. Saint versus angry nutter. How about normal with the ability to have an opinion on what happened to their child.

divegirl77 · 16/02/2013 15:07

The risks of non vaccinating are far greater than the risks of immunising. In Gloucestershire as in the North West the numbers of measles cases is increasing dramatically and there will shortly be a media campaign to try and increase vaccination rates. Immunisation only works if the vast majority of people of immunised and the genuine reasons not to immunise are few and far between. Measles is a horrible disease that carries with it a significant risk of complications including death. Mumps can cause sterility in men at a rate of 40-70% if inflammation of both testes. Rubella if caught when pregnancy has a 50% chance of causing congenital ruballa syndrome with a multitude of lifelong and potentially life-limiting complications.

I believe those the vast majority of those who have "carefully researched" the issue really are unable to interpret the basic scientific data to the standard required and will often choose sources that put an inherent spin on the information which aligns with there own uninformed views.

Certain states in the USA children are not allowed to attend the public/state school system unless immunised unless there is a verifiable medical reason why this should not be done. Personally I agree with with stance and wish it would taken up in the UK (along with nurseries etc). In this day and age there is no reason why people should suffer the life long consequences due to the ignorance of their parents.

Kungfutea · 16/02/2013 15:14

You must have read my post wrong, saintly, since that certainly wasn't my tone nor intention. Sorry if past experiences have made you jump to these conclusions.

I personally don't know anyone who hasn't vaccinated their kids in real life. Scratching my head to think of anyone and I can't, so all I see are the reasons people have given on this thread, and for the vast majority, they're not carefully thought out, scientifically substantiated reasons.

silverfrog · 16/02/2013 15:24

divegirl, where did you get your mumps sterility rates from? could you cite a source? thanks

saintlyjimjams · 16/02/2013 15:31

Actually in US states you can get exemptions ( either philosophical or religious depending on the State).

MMR rates for 5 year olds in the area with current outbreaks are 95% - a media campaign may be a waste of money.

I was quite able to understand the data thanks. I presented my own paper at a conference where I discussed vaccination with researchers (& heard vaccination mentioned in various research groups models).

Do you have any evidence that any of the outbreaks are affecting the 'nice' general public. Measles outbreaks are largely confined to the unvaccinated (mainly teens & adults in the current one). Babies are not vaccinated as they usually have passive antibodies. With the MMR now given earlier everyone has the option to get a measles vaccination at an early age. The risk of non-vaccination in the case of measles is generally to the unvaccinated - so you have a choice.The pertussis outbreaks are occurring in those who have been vaccinated for whatever reason & the dept of health has said non-vaccination is not driving those outbreaks.

If we're going to get hysterical and ban the few people who choose not to vaccinate I hope we're going to introduce compulsory testing of parents to ensure they understand that their child can still catch and spread a disease despite vaccination. Or is not bothering to do the limited research needed to find that out not counted as being irresponsible? (Reminder my son caught rubella from a vaccinated child - which was fine, we stayed in during the infectious period and he presumably now has immunity, but there were quite a few cases associated with that child).

Fwiw I don't particularly think the mother was irresponsible - just pointing out where mass hysteria lands us. The absolute vast majority of people choose to take the protection vaccination offers (have a look at the current rates - they are very high indeed) - do we need to hound those who choose not to. Of the many people I know who have decided not to vaccinate all except two have seen their elder children regress (ie they used to vaccinate). Some have seen their elder children end up in HDU or ICU. In many cases those elder children are no teens who are still in nappies. In a number of cases their doctors have suggested MMR may be responsible at least in part for their children's conditions. Do we really need to hound these people & ban them from education? Really?

saintlyjimjams · 16/02/2013 15:39

The mumps data might be correct given that it says 'if in both testes' which it very very rarely is. The sterility rate from mumps is very low because it so rarely causes problems in both testes. Although the rate of mumps in teens and adults is increasing so maybe it will become more common. The congenital rubella data sounds misleading as well as the damage depends very much at the stage or pregnancy it is caught. Very specific weeks being linked to problems - will google.

The vast majority of people we socialise with as a family kungfu have a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated kids. As I said I only know 2 with no vaccinations at all - and they both have pretty good reasons IMO.

saintlyjimjams · 16/02/2013 15:44

Highest risk for rubella is 10 weeks and under (more severe the earlier you get it - iirc rubella autism is very early on in preganacy - which ties in with the flu-autism research). Up to 16 weeks may get problems which become apparent when older. If you get rubella later than that there isn't a risk.

I grew up next to a rubella baby - which was partly why I had my rubella status checked before ttc. I would love to see some advertising money spent on that - granted there are always accidental pregnancies but I see a positive of vaccination being that they can protect specific groups. In fact I would go so far as to say I have no problem with vaccinations targeted towards specific at risk groups.