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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To expect mums to get their children vaccinated?

271 replies

againagain · 13/02/2013 20:17

Met two mums at play group today who said they didn't/weren't. Their reasons were autism, all that stuff on the Internet, drugs companies making money and keeping their children 'clean'. WTF?? Am I right in thinking their kids are safe though because 'the herd' is immunised? I just think there's a certain mother type who thinks anything 'non-natural' or scientific is wrong. Rant over

OP posts:
sashh · 14/02/2013 02:23

HollyBerryBush

If you have two children with autism don't you think it's more likely to be genetic than 'caused'?

Some people have to walk miles and queue for hours to get their children a vaccine. They tend to be in countries where parents have seen the devastation of childhood diseases.

saladcreamwitheverything · 14/02/2013 02:59

My child has been immunised, and will go on to be so.

Pickles101 · 14/02/2013 05:04

This thread is actually fucking horrible. Some of the attitudes on here are just Biscuit

AmandinePoulain · 14/02/2013 07:18

Spotty MMR isn't given to babies under 1 because it doesn't work effectively not because it's live. I looked into it a few months ago because I'm so close to an outbreak and I wondered if we could give it early but we can't. All of the immunity I passed on to dd2 during pregnancy will have waned by now and breastfeeding provides very little protection so I'm understandably worried Sad

Jengnr · 14/02/2013 07:31

YANBU. Parents who choose not to vaccinate are putting their own, and everybody else's, child at risk.

Dawndonna · 14/02/2013 07:38

To those who feel that MMR causes Autism. Please explain the incidences of Autism before the MMR.

As for this, Also autism is not simply genetic. If one identical female twin has autism there is only 50% chance that the other one will too. Environment is also a factor.
I sincerely hope you are not blaming parents or the home environment. The refrigerator mother crap was discredited many, many years ago.

HollyBerryBush · 14/02/2013 07:46

If you have two children with autism don't you think it's more likely to be genetic than 'caused'?

I don't have two with autism, I have one - the other has LDs including DAP, which was coincidental in manifesting at the time of the MMR. May be as a result, maybe not. I'll never know and it's not worth over thinking because it can't be changed can it?

Tailtwister · 14/02/2013 07:58

We chose to vaccinate and I do admit to feeling uneasy about it, even after reading and digesting all the evidence. We decided that the pros outweighed the risks. I don't know of any parents who chose not to vaccinate, but I'm sure my children are in close proximity to some children who aren't. I do think these parents should be able to choose not to vaccinate, but also believe that they are taking a risk by not doing so.

crashdoll · 14/02/2013 08:26

I've made this point on other threads and I'll say it again. I always wonder if the children who did have vaccine reactions, would have had those reactions triggered anyway but by something else.

Anyway, YABU to expect people to do anything. There are always reasons why people do not vaccinate, as some people have said upthread.

saintlyjimjams · 14/02/2013 09:21

They are ignorant & don't understand that measles & chicken pox could threaten the lives of their children. Hands up how many of the smug bunch on this thread have their kids vaccinated against chickenpox. :waits for the extra smug to appear:

I see the usual tasteless comments about dead versus autistic children have appeared. Which misses the point so utterly spectacularly it's really quite astounding.

Amongst all this hysteria about banning children from school please can I point you in the direction of the JCVI minutes. Always an interesting read. Anyway vaccination rates are currently the highest they've ever been. The areas with the outbreaks have very high rates (95% ish - although of course will depend on the cohort you measure) so I don't think we need to worry too much about mass outbreaks in schools destroying the innocent. (Albeit you might see outbreaks in schools such as Steiner school where a lot of parents choose not to vaccinate - this is to be expected). Babies aren't usually at high risk of catching measles (although of course they will be at higher risk if they do) because they usually have passive immunity from their mother - this is why they are not vaccinated earlier - if the average baby was at risk of catching measles MMR would be given along with the other 6 at 2 months.

Some of my children are vaccinated, some aren't. My mother is deaf in one ear from measles, I have a science PhD, I have a severely disabled child, I've read more than probably everyone on this thread. No senior doctor has ever criticised our decision to not vaccinate our younger children - in fact they have gone so far as to agree with it.

But do carry on with the hysteria.

saintlyjimjams · 14/02/2013 09:24

As for don't you think it's more likely to be genetic

This totally misunderstands genetics. Genes often interact with environmental factors - there's a whole lot of research going into that.

Also autism is NOT one thing - it is many conditions. It is known for example that autism where the condition runs through families is inherited very differently to simplex autism. Autism where it runs through families may be inherited in the way that people tend to mean when they say 'it's genetic' - in other words the autism traits are inherited. This is not the case for simplex autism. That much is known.

saintlyjimjams · 14/02/2013 09:24

simplex autism being single case in the family (with unaffected boys in the family) and no increased autism traits in parents.

ExitPursuedByABear · 14/02/2013 10:51

tilder wrote way up thread that as a scientist they are still learning - and that is exactly what always worries me - we have no bloody idea of the long term consequences of our medical activities, and is the reason why I chose for my DD to have single vaccines.

tilder · 14/02/2013 13:28

Bit surprised to see my name mentioned especially given how badly I worded my post. Was very Blush after rereading.

Have to say, I am pro vaccine and I think I failed miserably in getting my point across. My point is basically to query how someone with lay knowledge can interpret the spread of info available on vaccination and come up with x, whereas the consensus of experts is y. I do appreciate that for some people there are unusual circumstances that may mean a different approach might be helpful, but when it comes to vaccination these cases are rare. This is not meant to be offensive.

I was very interested to see papers from the 1960s used to support a view on the current content of a vaccine. That did raise an eyebrow.

Enough of being a geek, I do try and steer away from vacc threads normally.

MiaowTheCat · 14/02/2013 13:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ExitPursuedByABear · 14/02/2013 16:40

tilder - you got your point across just fine, and I realise that you are pro vaccination, it is just that your point that we are all still learning struck a chord with me Smile

noblegiraffe · 14/02/2013 17:14

Exit, if you are concerned that we don't know the long term effects of our medical activities and you were worried about the MMR, what made you decide that having the vaccines separately made any difference to the potential risk?

Kungfutea · 14/02/2013 18:08

Very good points tilder and toys. Completely agree.

exit not knowing things doesn't mean they're bad. In fact, the point about science learning and evolving should, according to your logic, lead you to reject any medicine, including paracetamol. There are some studies beginning to show a link between asthma/allergies and paracetamol use.

In which case, it is therefore conceivable that the benefits of vaccination are even greater since by reducing the exposure to illness (eg measles), the potential use of paracetamol is reduced, on average. So learning more has shown that vaccination is even more beneficial to child health.

In fact, the more research which is done, the more confident I am in the safety of the current recommended childhood vaccinations. For example, concerns were raised about the MMR and autism based on a pretty flimsy theoretical link and not on any observed evidence. So a number of large studies were carried out to see if there was anyhting to the idea. None of them found any link. Of course, it's still theoretically possible that there is a link but the numbers of children affected would be tiny if there were since the studies were so large. So here's an example of learning more showing that vaccination is safe and (hopefully) increasing confidence.

Personally, I would make vaccination compulsory for school attendance if no medical exemption is provided. Those with genuine medical reasons could obtain exemptions and, in fact, their children would be the ones who would stand to gain the most. Of course people sholdn't be forced to vaccinate but if you wish to partake of a social good then you should be willing to accept that by you not vaccinating you are, de facto, increasing the risk to others who are equally entitled to an education. Those for whom there are concerns over vaccinating would be able to be exempted and those, like the ones the OP described, would not be allowed to willy nilly expose others to risk.

The only thing, OP, is that YABVU to just refer to mums. It's dads as well!

tilder · 14/02/2013 18:19

If we waited for 100% certainty we would still be living in caves.

On something as important to me as my children's health, I take the advice of the overwhelming majority of people and vaccinate. I am really not sure what possible reason there could be for countless doctors, scientists etc who understand the science far better than me to mislead me on this. The mmr has been extensively studied and I really do think any possible link to autism is vanishingly small.

claig · 14/02/2013 18:42

'Personally, I would make vaccination compulsory for school attendance if no medical exemption is provided.'

Am I right that you are a "liberal" who reads the Guardian?

They won't make it mandatory in a hurry because they know that many parents would remove kids from schools and they would mainly be educated and middle class. The numbers could be surprisingly large. They prefer an education campaign to making it mandatory.

WorriedTeenMum · 14/02/2013 18:48

I do agree with you re the superior parenting attitudes MiaowTheCat.

Kungfutea · 14/02/2013 18:49

Who is 'they'?

Mandatory vaccination for state school entrance seems to work fine in other countries.

And what is being a "liberal" got to do with things in your opinion (and why the quotation marks??)? Very strange!

claig · 14/02/2013 19:07

They is the authorities. Homeschooling would increase dramatically like in the United States and they don't want that.

A "liberal" in quotes is someone who thinks parental choice and rights should be ignored in order to make vaccination mandatory because they think that they are right and know best about the benefits and risks.

Remember the Blair case

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1366121/Blair-hints-that-Leo-had-MMR-jab-as-vaccine-rebellion-mounts.html

There are a lot of educated people who are not as sure as you are when it comes to potential risks and many are influential and would not easily accept mandatory regulations.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-90184/Cheries-sister-MMR.html

claig · 14/02/2013 19:10

'Ms Booth, journalist and mother of a 12-month-old daughter, said: "Where my daughter's health is concerned I'm more inclined to believe information I find on the Internet than to swallow advice from a Government leaflet.
"How can a Government, which in one breath advises us to check the labels on food for additives and E numbers, then so breezily recommend vaccinations containing mercury and formaldehyde for babies less than nine-weeks-old?"
Ms Booth, who said she had refused to allow her daughter Alexandra to have the MMR jab, said doctors receive generous bonuses if they meet Government targets on vaccinations.'

There are many people like Lauren Booth, Cherioe Blair's half-sister, who would probably campaign against it. The fuss that that would make would increase fears of the public and probably lead to a lower vaccination rate. That is why they won't make it mandatory in a hurry.

smile4me · 14/02/2013 19:17

YANBU... I was about to start a similar thread Grin . They are putting OUR children at risk because vaccinations rely on herd immunity, when we get below a certain percentage of children vaccinated (85-90%) the vaccines don't work as well because there is too much disease out there for them to overcome! So they are selfishly increasing the risk of everyone elses children becoming sick! Angry Angry

There is a risk of an adverse reaction to ANYTHING whether it be getting vaccinated or eating a new food and having an allergic reaction, but most reactions are very mild, so the risk of a severe reaction is FAR LESS than the risk of dying due to the disease the vaccine is protecting. The one study linking MMR vaccines to autism was fraudulent, in that the Dr who ran it made up the figures and case studies to prove what he wanted the outcome to be.