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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To expect mums to get their children vaccinated?

271 replies

againagain · 13/02/2013 20:17

Met two mums at play group today who said they didn't/weren't. Their reasons were autism, all that stuff on the Internet, drugs companies making money and keeping their children 'clean'. WTF?? Am I right in thinking their kids are safe though because 'the herd' is immunised? I just think there's a certain mother type who thinks anything 'non-natural' or scientific is wrong. Rant over

OP posts:
HerrenaHarridan · 13/02/2013 22:16

While I usually steer clear of this kind of mn argument in this instance I have to say this.

I was not intending to vaccinate my dc, I looked into it so I could defend my stance.
It's utter fucking bollocks. Wakefield ( the man who first shat out this nonsense) never did any kind of actual study at all.
I could rant at length on the subject but won't waste my breath, this link will walk you through all the evidence provided by both sides.
www.badscience.net/category/mmr/

ReallyTired · 13/02/2013 22:34

Owllady

I think the BBC is a fairly repruatable source that child mortality has been drastically reduced.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6992401.stm

Alternatively go for a walk in your local grave yard and think of the poor mothers who lost their chidlren to childhood diseases.

Vacnination prevents disablity

measles

polio

www.bbc.co.uk/health/physical_health/conditions/tetanus2.shtml tetanus]]

" In Africa, one the foremost causes of disability is infectious and communicable disease; the incidence of these diseases have been greatly reduced or eliminated in higher income countries. "

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2722543/

To me not vacinating is a no brainer for the majority of chidlren. There is no evidence that autism is caused by the MMR.

determinedma · 13/02/2013 22:40

harridan the link is to either a piece from an "uninformed reporter" or the piece "bashed out" for the newsdesk. Which one am I supposed to be reading as neither title tempts me

redspottydress · 13/02/2013 22:43

noble I wasn't criticising Bill Gates for what he is doing; more wondering why he chose to do that, rather than something else which would reduce deaths from diarrheah and mean that people are stronger and more able to fight diseases that we vaccination against.

socharlottet · 13/02/2013 22:46

Um why isn't it parents who don't immunise?

In the absence of medical contraindication, my opinion is that nonvaxers are selfish and stupid free-riders, who only have the luxury not to immunise because the majority of people are responsible and get their kids vaxed.
Too right they should not be in state schools.

HolidayArmadillo · 13/02/2013 22:48

havingastress actually no, we didn't get any hassle, the surgery sent out repeat appointments for a few months following the primary cancellation but when I informed them I intended not to vaccinate they removed me from the list without quibble.

ToysRLuv · 13/02/2013 22:49

Tilder hit the nail on the head for me. I'm a scientist too, although in a somewhat different field, and find it frankly insulting that lay people would claim to have "properly" researched anything in my field without specialist knowledge and absolute heaps of time. So, people doing their own "independent" and "unbiased" Grin research on the evidence for and against vaccinations in their spare time by doing a bit of googling (and quite possibly ending up on antivaxx websites - that obvs have their own agendas) or reading a couple of random (sometimes seemingly) scientific papers that come up high in a web search, are deluded fools.

Without in-depth knowledge of backgrounds and issues in immunology I would not dream of declaring that I know better than immunologists that work in this field for decades (and I'm sure the entrance criteria for medical schools, chemistry depts., etc. nclude "evilness" and "bribeability" (if there is such a word)). In fact my aunt and uncle both work for a drug company (fairly high ranking chemist and a biologist), and are definitely what you would call decent, normal people. Sure every field has its rotten apples, but science has a way of weeding them out (Wakefield, to give a well-known example)- eventually. The routine vaccines have been found to be safe enough (scientific research results are never absolutely black or white - but you they can find an acceptable shade of grey), and the alternatives are unthinkable (especially, because they are so easily avoidable), so I'll give my DS whatever's on the schedule. In fact he has his MMR booster next week Grin

I know some people have a genuine reason (allergy, illness, etc.) for not immunizing their DC, but most really do not. We are all together in this society (like it or not), and parts of it - working together. If we have democratically agreed that we would like to get rid of some, possibly severe, diseases and that we should take care of the weak, e.g. cancer patients who cannot be protected, anyone without good reason really should immunize their DC. But you can't force some "free-thinking" individualists to think about anyone else. And I wouldn't even try, TBH. They already think they are cleverer than anyone else to have unveiled all these conspiracies.

Also, anyone who will want to come back with an argument about being a "sheep" blindly following current scientific advice, well, I guess I am, but so is everyone else. E.g. do you check whether the maintenance is up to date on a lift and really get stuck in learning about lift-building and maintenance literature before giving it a thorough once-over yourself before you (or your children) get in one? I didn't think so. But some people die in broken lifts. You have to have a degree of trust in others or move to a desert island somewhere.

SomethingOnce · 13/02/2013 22:52

Questions for those afraid of the effects of the vaccine:

Are you not similarly afraid of the possible outcomes of not vaccinating?

What do you believe to be the balance of risks?

coppertop · 13/02/2013 23:01

"I know some people have a genuine reason (allergy, illness, etc.) for not immunizing their DC, but most really do not."

The problem is that all too often you only discover that your child isn't suited to a particular vaccination until after they've been given it.

My ds stopped breathing after being given his first DTP immunisations. Doctors refused to accept that the DTP might have been to blame, and came up with various suggestions including a latex allergy or an allergy to the swab they used on his leg.

Now according to some people on here, ds shouldn't have been allowed to attend school as he wasn't fully vaccinated. The get-out clause of "unless there was a good reason" wouldn't have applied because officially he had not reacted to the DTP at all.

We were encouraged to let ds have the second DTP injection under observation at the hospital. Again he stopped breathing, and by sheer chance there was a doctor on duty that day who had seen this reaction in another child. The cause was found to be the pertussis element.

How many parents on here can honestly say that they would have put their own baby through that second DTP without hesitation? And for those of you who wouldn't, well you would have effectively signed away your child's right to attend school.

Still think it's such a great policy?

ReallyTired · 13/02/2013 23:03

SomethingOnce completely agree.

Every medication has its risks. I would rather take a 12 in million chance of my child developing autism from the MMR than substantially higher chance of them dying from a childhood disease.

*In the West, mortality is

trixymalixy · 13/02/2013 23:05

Somethingonce, I delayed giving my kids the MMR as they both have multiple severe allergies including egg. I was very worried about them getting measles, but also loathe to inject them with something there was so much fuss about when they were allergic to one of the components while they were still very young.

What swung it for me was DS developing asthma and seeing how poorly he was with something that the rest of the family had shaken off fairly easily. The balance of risks swung for me then. They ended up having the MMR in hospital.

DementedHousewife · 13/02/2013 23:08

Fuck off with the 'children shouldn't be in schools. Just fuck right off. In this country any medical procedure outside of some aspects mental health requires consent, why? because any medical treatment, any vaccination carries risk. Informed consent at that. In America where most states require vaccination to attend public schools, there are exemption forms, so in actual fact in all but two you can refuse vaccination and still attend school.

My dc are un-vaccinated, and should not be denied an education due to our family history. My sister is the collateral damage no-one wants to speak of. Its so easy to sit there and preach at other parents who make the choice not to vaccinate when your child is one of the majority who don't suffer a reaction. A reaction that leaves them profoundly disabled, paraplegic, incontinent, brain damaged and forgotten about. Your there helping my mum wipe my sisters bum, change her nappy (she is 34 btw) clean her peg site, set up her feeds. You're not there to help turn her to prevent pressure sores, give her meds, watch her spasm and scream in pain due to the chronic nerve damage her immune system and vaccine reaction caused.
You aren't in my shoes, my mums shoes, you aren't one of the unlucky few. Not everyone chooses to not vaccinate because of MMR and Wakefield. Her life was ruined the day she collapsed in the surgery after her jab, ruined.
Hides thread.

ToysRLuv · 13/02/2013 23:09

In my opinion, in a modern society, every child has a right to go to school, regardless of parents's choices and ideology. That is fundamental. Not saying that it could not become more problematic in the future, though, if vaccination rates fall further.

Coppertop: Clearly you have an acceptable reason. It just isn't the scientific way to jump the gun and announce things before they are absolutely clear (can be annoying, or even sometimes, like with your son, dangerous, but ultimately necessary on the whole to make the world a more rational, safer place). I would, probably not have given the second vaccine either, seeing as your DS's reaction (whether it was something else linked to the situation or the vaccine itself, or even coincidental) was so very severe. People should immunize their DC so that boys like your DS can be kept safe(r).

MummytoKatie · 13/02/2013 23:11

The way I made the decision was this:-

Either the vaccine is safe or it is not safe. If it is safe then obviously the correct decision is to immunise. Sorted.

So let us now assume it is not safe. If that is true then in the next few years there is going to be a big scandal about it. As soon as there is even a whisper of the scandal then parents will stop immunising. At this point herd immunity will almost certainly break down.

So the question is:- Do I want my child to have the unsafe vaccine or do I want her to be at significant risk of catching one of the illnesses.

Answer:- I think that the vaccine - even if it is unsafe - gives a lower risk.

Therefore - either way I will vaccinate.

The problem with parents who don't vaccinate is that I think some of them do so believing that herd immunity will never fall apart so the risk of catching the illness is fairly low. But that is relying on other people to do something to their children that you have decided is unsafe for your own child. And I don't think that is a good thing to hang your hat on.

Incidentally I found out a few months ago that I have a horse in this race. Despite having rubella aged about 8, having the jab at 11, being immune before getting pregnant with dd age 29 and still being immune when pg with dd at 30 it seems that I am now 33 and not immune to rubella. And pregnant. It's a scary place to be. I am very glad dd has been immunised as she has had loads of colds etc the last few months and it would have been terrifying to wonder each time if they were the start of rubella....

fluffypillow · 13/02/2013 23:11

YANBU.

noblegiraffe · 13/02/2013 23:17

redspottydress he chose to do that, and diarrhoea, and HIV, TB, malaria and so on. Eradicating polio is just a headline: imagine completely wiping out a horrendous disease through vaccination.

Info on the work against diarrhoea:
www.gatesfoundation.org/global-health/Documents/enteric-and-diarrheal-diseases-strategy.pdf

socharlottet · 13/02/2013 23:22

Demented so you think nobody should vaccinate their children ,and we should bring back, polio , dioptheria, measles and the like, or just your children should be exempt from vaccination?

(I know you won't answer that)

PurpleStorm · 13/02/2013 23:25

We vaccinated DS because we were more worried about the possible consequences of him catching one of the illnesses than we were about the theoretical risk of autism.

The illnesses that are vaccinated against can kill, or permanently disable a child. Or an unborn child, in the case of rubella. So we were more concerned about that than the risk of the vaccine.

Although if we had a family history of people reacting badly to vaccines, or known allergies to components of the vaccine, it would have been a much harder decision to make, and I can understand parents being reluctant to vaccinate under those circumstances.

redspottydress · 13/02/2013 23:32

Noble I stand corrected, I should have done my research!

CloudsAndTrees · 13/02/2013 23:32

People have the right to choose if they want their children to be injected with things they don't fully trust. It's that simple. If we don't have parental choice over what goes into our children's bodies, then there is something seriously wrong.

ToysRLuv · 13/02/2013 23:42

I, myself, I find that I have an inherent distrust towards potentially fatal diseases (someone's really botched up their PR, haven't they!).

thegreylady · 13/02/2013 23:46

As a result of measles I have very little hearing in one ear and partial hearing loss in the other. This happened when I was 6 years old.

WorriedTeenMum · 13/02/2013 23:48

I listened to an interesting article on the radio the other day talking about immunisation programmes in developing countries.

The healthcare professional interviewed described the immunisation programme in developed countries as being a victim of its own success. We have gone through years of not seeing the impact of the diseases which are routinely immunised against.

sausagesandwich34 · 13/02/2013 23:58

my oldest dd is fully vacinated and I fully intended dd2 to be vacinated

when she was due her MMR booster, she was undergoing diagnostics for an auto immune disorder

under medical advice she didn't recieve her booster

I rely on herd immunity to keep her safe and well and the number of people not immunising their children scares me

SomethingOnce · 14/02/2013 00:16

So sorry to read about your sister, Demented.

I am interested in what you have to say, but feel it would be insensitive (this is perhaps not the place or the time) to ask questions.

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