to wonder WTF would it take for people stop eating "meat"

[ElenorRigby]

Just that really!

As far as I'm aware, there are certain places which offer the opportunity for children and adults on the spectrum to work with horses (which also respond well to calm handling, and are generally safer for one-to-one work than cattle)

I have a family member who worked in early diagnosis and treatment (not the right word really, but helped those on the spectrum develop useful life skills etc) - will ask and see if they know anymore.

I read her book about that, LadyFT. I was extraordinary, and subsequently I have read many more. I used to work with autistic children, and had had pretensions to researching in the field (got ill so couldn't pursue my PhD). However, TG has remained an inspiration to me on behavioural matters in all sorts of areas which may not be immediately obvious.

There used to be a stables somewhere near Richmond (SW London somewhere anyway, sorry never knew that actual details) which ran special classes for autistic people, Maryz. I have no idea whether they still do as this was quite a few years ago. I would have thought that most large stables would be aware of the therapeutic value, particularly in autism.

TheOriginalLadyFT
Temple Grandin's work on abattoirs sounds interesting (romantic even), but are any of her recommendations for abattoirs implemented in the UK?

There is a push from animal welfare groups (including CIWF) to oblige every slaughterhouse to have CCTV cameras installed to ensure agreed standards are being met. Covert footage collected from inside a number of slaughterhouses would currently suggest there are issues where welfare standards are a) not being adhered to b) incidents of cruelty (including those unrelated to the slaugher process) are taking place.

Animal Aid has collected the footage, but in case that's considered to be biased, here's a meat eating vet's position on the subject:

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peterwedderburn/100058405/its-time-to-install-cctv-in-uks-abattoirs/

I could eat meat very occasionally indeed, but my family like to have Shepherd's Pie, lasagne, chilli, sausages, chicken pie etc as regular meals. It's not all about individual choice. We do have lots of veggie meals too and have fish once or twice a week. Some people seem to think it isn't a proper meal if it doesn't contain meat though and I'm definitely not one of those people!

The Shy Lowen centre on Merseyside is a horse rescue and rehab centre, but works with children with special needs (including behavioural, I think) but I don't know if they work with children on the spectrum

www.shylowen.com/aboutus.htm

They talk about their Equine Assisted Growth and Learning Programme at the end of the page

www.silent-whispers.co.uk/

This is the organisation which works with them

when we start evolving to have eyes on the dides of our head loose our canines then I will.

can't stand animal rights namby pambyness.

Perhaps we are omnivores, (it's something I need to look into a bit more!)

I think we are, Liza: we have the ability to digest meat protein, which herbivores don't. Someone mentioned that apes are fruit-eaters, which is true in the main; but chimps, our closest cousins, will kill and eat monkeys and also tuck into insects, so they're omnivorous, too. Overall I think we're opportunistic eaters, which has enabled us to survive and thrive. If you look at the human population as a whole, we're capable of strict veganism all the way to a pure meat diet as in the Inuit or Masai.

As a health-related aside, the Masai are an interesting group: they eat only fatty meat and drink full-fat milk from their own cattle, but have a much lower cholesterol level than the average westerner. It's not genetic either: if Masai leave the land and move to a city and have a 'normal' diet, their cholesterol levels reach western levels.

can't stand animal rights namby pambyness.^

So, MrsB, you don't care how anmals are treated at all? A curious notion.

I won't be eating meat for quite a while. Because I think if there is undetected horse in the meat what else is there in it. But if I do it will be from a local butcher or farm shop.

if its farmed to be eaten, I probably careless than say a dog or cat.

TheOriginalLadyFT Temple Grandin's work on abattoirs sounds interesting (romantic even), but are any of her recommendations for abattoirs implemented in the UK?

I wouldn't call what Temple did 'romantic' - she was working for MacDonalds, a multi billion dollar corporation which has zero interest in the 'romantic' connotations of anything. Every recommendation she made, including the slaughterhouse assessments, had to be practical and cost effective.

I don't have links I can post to this effect, but I've heard anecdotally from those who work within the sector that new abattoirs do incorporate her recommendations, particularly when it comes to cattle handling system design. She's an internationally respected expert on this.

I wuold have no problem at all with CCTVs in abattoirs - so long as every abattoir was included (and that means halal and kosher ones too). As a farmer, I would be at the forefront of calling for the full weight of the law to be brought down on those who abuse animals in slaughterhouses (or indeed on farms). They are criminals and deserve to be treated as such

As I've said elsewhere on this thread, there are 'bad guys' and they should (and often are) discovered and prosecuted. But they are a minority, and trying to guilt or frighten people into not eating meat by asserting all farm animals are 'tortured' or face 'misery' either on farms or in the slaughterhouse is something I won't stand by and not comment on

butchers are cheaper too on the whole its a no brainer to buy from there

As a health-related aside, the Masai are an interesting group: they eat only fatty meat and drink full-fat milk from their own cattle, but have a much lower cholesterol level than the average westerner. It's not genetic either: if Masai leave the land and move to a city and have a 'normal' diet, their cholesterol levels reach western levels

Processed carbs are the enemy, not meat and/or fat

atkins proved that point theoriginal

Processed carbs are the enemy, not meat and/or fat

Indeed. But you won't get the NHS to say that. Even Ancel Keyes said there was no link between eating saturated fats and cholesterol levels, but somehow it's become almost gospel that it does.

Hmm, I have reservations about Atkins diet as he encouraged people to eat processed meat products which have issues with salt and preservative content, but IKWYM

For me it's like saying "Why don't you cut out alcohol/chocolate/caffeine?"

Because I believe in everything in moderation, and not in cutting things out of my diet entirely. Because it's one of the pleasures of life to eat really good food, which sometimes involves meat, and I wouldn't want my life to be any less pleasurable, thanks.

That is interesting *SonOfAradia. We certainly are opportunistic eaters I agree! But in this country, we have the opportunity for a lot of choice, some of us make that choice wisely and others give no thought to it at all! (and I'm not just talking about the choice to eat meat)

"can't stand animal rights namby pambyness"

Interesting attitude, I'm sure that many people said the same about woman's rights, black rights, gay rights etc... Luckily there have always been people who do care about the rights of those mistreated, and the world is a better place for it!

Now I'm a cynical supermarket hater (not really, but I have serious reservations about them) and see their malign influence everywhere.

The same businesses which pressured the FSA into dropping some food testing because they didn't like being named and shamed (bet you're enjoying it now, eh boys?) are also the ones which go into Whitehall and none too politely point out that they won't tolerate interfere in what they do because 'it's us that keeps inflation down/employs thousands of people/feeds the masses'

It's not a big leap of imagination to see that they wouldn't be happy about edicts from the NHS or elsewhere within govt which point out to people that cheap processed foods high in sugar and carbs (which have proven 'addictive' qualities and encourage people to overeat) are bad for you. These products have high profit margins and, because they encourage overeating biochemically, high repeat sales

Why should anyone have to justify their reasons for eating meat?

TheOriginalLadyFT : I wuold have no problem at all with CCTVs in abattoirs - so long as every abattoir was included (and that means halal and kosher ones too). As a farmer, I would be at the forefront of calling for the full weight of the law to be brought down on those who abuse animals in slaughterhouses (or indeed on farms). They are criminals and deserve to be treated as such

So why do you object to CIWF, whose work you dismiss as 'bilge'?

TheOriginalLadyFT : As I've said elsewhere on this thread, there are 'bad guys' and they should (and often are) discovered and prosecuted.

My impression is that the 'bad guys' are not always prosecuted, e.g. a number of abattoirs from which undercover video footage was collected by Animal Aid, whereby Defra chose not to prosecute, due to methods by which footage was obtained.

Why should anyone have to justify their reasons for eating meat?

In this country, as a whole, we take a very dim view of the mistreatment of animals (albeit selectively) there is often public outrage if somebody is known to be showing cruelty to a dog or a cat. Many people believe that cruelty is cruelty regardless of the species, and if somebody is eating meat from an animal that has been badly mistreated, than buying and consuming that meat is directly contributing to that mistreatment!

That's why.

I object to the CIWF because they mix up truth with untruth/hyperbole

I'm not going to out myself, but I've dealt with the stuff that comes out of CIWF on a professional level and some of it is simply untrue, while some of it is spun to make their point

Like any campaigning organisation (and I include the RSPB and RSPCA in this) they need funds to roll in and that means using highly emotive issues and manipulating people's feelings. The RSPB at national exec level consistently accuse farmers of being despoilers of the countryside and birds exterminators - talk to the staff on the ground and they'll tell you different. They do it because it works better funding-wise than saying cats are a major problem in bird predation - as the vast majority of their members are cat owners

Processed carbs and SUGAR

Sugar is the devil

Right, lunchtime (as in, I'm not just posting and pissing off)