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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder WTF would it take for people stop eating "meat"

757 replies

ElenorRigby · 13/02/2013 18:33

Just that really!

OP posts:
TheSeventhHorcrux · 14/02/2013 18:57

Eleanor - there is something very disturbing about someone killing and eating a pet. Naming an animal borders on these lines.

I would not want to kill and eat my pet rabbits - why? because i have developed a psychological attachment to them and to kill them would be upsetting. In the same way it would be upsetting to, i don't know, smash down a house that I had built/designed. But i don't get upset about other houses being knocked down (unless there is an upsetting circumstance) and don't get upset about rabbits being killed (humanely)

TheOriginalLadyFT · 14/02/2013 18:57

Chimpanzees are omnivores, but they are still predators - one doesn't preclude the other

TheSeventhHorcrux · 14/02/2013 18:58

"And what about after that moment?" - they get killed and eaten. Mainly quickly and with the view of causing them the least amount of pain a suffering. Because that is why they were bred and raised in the first place.

BigBoPeep · 14/02/2013 18:58

Have to put a few crazy things right here!

our digestive systems and teeth are more like herbivores? which ones!? Show me the herbivore with a digestive system even slightly resembling a human's? We are most like pigs, confirmed omnivores, and have a highly acidic stomach, short gut etc like carnivores. We share some tiny similarities with some herbivores, which points to an omnivore diet at best...

we don't need to eat meat in the west? We don't need to eat veg either. one thing's for sure though, we have to eat something from the selection available, and living in the west doesn't magically make food appear from thin air - it has to be grown and manufactured the old fashioned way, same as it always was. Just because you can't see it anymore doesn't mean it doesn't go on. And I hope those enjoying their manmade fabrics and vitB12 supplements are volunteering to live next to the factories that make them, and have good ideas about where to get the oil they come from without any environmental destruction, and deal with the waste responsibly....

dairy cows are not milked continuously - even the most intensive systems will milk 3x in 24hrs, and that's pretty rare as the low price of milk doesn't really justify the resources and laour used for a third milking. There are milking robots now which allow the animals to choose when they are milked and the average number of milkings in 24hrs is 2.7ish I think. Some places milk once a day, and most places will dry a cow off after 9 months and she will have a 3month holiday (how much holiday do you get?). They will often suckle their calves naturally for at least 8months, sometimes right up until calving, and some cows which produce too much milk to be dried off without serious mastitis problems may be kept in milk.

They are also 'allosucklers' which means they will share milk (hence having 4 teats despite only having one young to rear at a time, unlike sheep, goats etc which have 2 and two teats) so a human taking the extra is not too big of a jump in imagination: presumably why cattle were among the first animals to be domesticated and have been such a success since. Early humans had very little on their side - no handling systems, no horses to ride at that point - and were going up against beasts that could EASILY kill them if they so wished, so there had to be something in it for the cows to allow it to happen, where other animals didn't.

Wild cattle don't exist any more, we hunted the auroch to extinction, so if we let cattle die out it means their gamble in allowing themselves to become domesticated didn't pay off - we just gave them a massive slap in the face in return for their trust. nice.

'Most' male dairy calves are not slaughtered at birth, they are raised as 'bull beef'. There's no difference between a beef and dairy breed, veal does not mean 'beef from a dairy animal', it just means 'slaughtered when it would ordinarily be suckling it's mother e.g: up to 8mo'. A few are reared for veal (and slaughtered as babies) and a minority are shot at birth. Yes, that's no good, but you don't have to eat veal you can just eat beef and increase demand to ensure they have a longer life.

Pink/rose veal will not routinely be suckled by a mother - the mother is a dairy cow and they do not keep their calves for logistical reasons. They will more than likely be reared on milk powder which is made from the milk produced. Bit of a headfuc there, but until somebody comes up with a scale-able method of hygenically and effectively milking a cow with a calf at foot, that'll be how it is. Some producers do produce veal from beef breeds which suckle their mothers and are slaughtered early, so there's no garantee your veal is from a 'rescued' male dairy calf unless you ask, but it will have had a mother if that's important to you.

TheOriginalLadyFT · 14/02/2013 18:59

After that moment they go into the handling system and down to the knocking pen and are dead instantly - a matter of minutes. I go and see it - again, I don't like slaughterhouses particularly and I wouldn't want to work in one, but that doesn't mean they are all places of horrific torture and abuse

TheSeventhHorcrux · 14/02/2013 19:00

I would not eat a dog or cat. Not because they are cute, or fluffy, or any attachment I have to the breed - but because I don't think they would taste nice or have good meat on them. I've heard carnivore meat is not nice.

If I was literally starving, short of eating a human, I would eat pretty much anything.

Hullygully · 14/02/2013 19:02

cows and sheep and pigs are not prey animals.

Liza80 · 14/02/2013 19:02

My decision to give up meat is based more on what goes on in slaughterhouses that what goes on in farms!
My main concern is with the kind of meat used by fast food restaurants etc 'intense farming' if that is the phrase. As I said, before I gave up meat I chose to buy from 'ethical sources' which would probably include the farms that you are defending. My issue is with the industry overall rather than the farmers!

TheOriginalLadyFT · 14/02/2013 19:02

If I was literally starving, short of eating a human, I would eat pretty much anything

I might make an exception if the human was a veggie Grin

(It's a joke, OK, don't get all cross - this has been a fairly intense thread!)

ElenorRigby · 14/02/2013 19:03

I accept that we evolved to eat meat. Our brains grew large and we dominated all, even our own kind.
But surely we should now evolve beyond such barbarism

OP posts:
TheOriginalLadyFT · 14/02/2013 19:03

Fast food restaurants like MacDonalds? Which sources British meat from farms like ... ours? Hmm

Hullygully · 14/02/2013 19:04

Oh hang on, unless you meant they are our prey. Grass is theirs (cows and sheep)

I agree Liza. Original, you sond like a lovely dream farmer, but the industry, the very idea of animals even being an industry, is anathema to me.

Liza80 · 14/02/2013 19:04

Much as I would love to stay, (this is an interesting and informative debate!) I have to go and cook some food now. Veggie Chilli if anyones interested! Wink
Thank you all. May pop back later.

TheOriginalLadyFT · 14/02/2013 19:04

cows and sheep and pigs are not prey animals

Go on, then, what are they?

Hullygully · 14/02/2013 19:05

see up^^

TheOriginalLadyFT · 14/02/2013 19:05

Cross posted hully - yes, I meant our prey!

Liza80 · 14/02/2013 19:05

macdonalds is an international company, I hardly believe all their meat is surced from british farms!

TheOriginalLadyFT · 14/02/2013 19:05

Yes, me too. It's erm steak for tea Grin but I promise it is ethically reared!

Maryz · 14/02/2013 19:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheSeventhHorcrux · 14/02/2013 19:06

"cows and sheep and pigs are not prey animals."

Cows - "In North America, wolves, bears, cougars and coyotes will hunt and kill calves and old and weak cows. In Africa, lions, hyenas, leopards, wild dogs, crocodiles and cheetahs will kill livestock. In Asia, tigers, crocs, alligators, panthers, etc. will also prey on cattle."

Sheep - are you kidding? Wolves mainly but coyotes and wild dogs... I bet a fox could take one down to (maybe Confused)

Pigs - wild pigs are eaten by mountain lions, wolves, coyotes. Domestic pigs are also eaten by wolves.

TheSeventhHorcrux · 14/02/2013 19:07

x-post Maryz sorry!

Liza80 · 14/02/2013 19:07

I might make an exception if the human was a veggie grin

not at all! jokes are good! Smile

Hullygully · 14/02/2013 19:07

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes see up (twice) ^^

Liza80 · 14/02/2013 19:08

and now I really MUST go.....

TheOriginalLadyFT · 14/02/2013 19:08

The burgers you eat in this country contain beef from farms in Britain and Ireland. See their website

They also pioneered improvements in slaughterhouse legislation in the US with the help of a brilliant behavioural scientist (and autistic woman) called Temple Grandin - google and you'll see. I've had the honour of meeting Temple and her work with cattle handling systems made a huge difference to welfare - and she did it with MacDonalds.