to wonder WTF would it take for people stop eating "meat"

[ElenorRigby]

Just that really!

Liza - I can confidently say that they are not aware as they wouldn't be grazing serenely, interact happily with the farmer and walk trustingly to the slaughterhouse.

They would at least display some signs of anxiety or try to escape.

The bull who cried - when he was ABOUT to be slaughtered? Different story. I'm sure he was ignorant up to that point.

Well done canIhave I have recently become a vegan but I have immense respect for everyone choosing to buy ethically, although as I mentioned before it isn't always easy to know how 'ethical' it is, despite what it says on the label.
However I do recognise that as a really positive step towards becoming more aware.
Watch out, you'll be going vegetarian before you know it! lol

I think Army is being very calm and reasoned. Whether you like what she has to say is a different matter.

I agree with everything you say Army.

Personally, I prefer buying from butchers, not least because most of the major retailers aren't much cheaper anyway for the decent cuts and they treat suppliers appallingly in some cases (which is what caused the horsemeat scandal IMO). I also feel the meat is a better quality in terms of taste, usually as it is hung to mature longer.

However, if you're buying from supermarkets then you can look for the Red Tractor logo - this logo guarantees the meat is raised to certain welfare and management standards. If the logo also has the union flag on it, it means it is British. There are other certification schemes for animal welfare - the RSPCA has Freedom Foods, for example.

Not all foreign reared meat has poor welfare - I've been to Argentina and seen beef reared in ethical systems, for example, but generally British standards are higher. There are also issues around things like clearing the rainforest in the Pantanal in Brazil to rear cattle on reclaimed pasture land - and all this means for the wildlife and ecosystem.

I don't believe organic is any better than free range in terms of welfare and taste. It comes down to personal choice - the only difference our cattle have from organic cattle is things like worming treatments, which personally I feel would be a welfare issue not to do. So I don't believe it is 'better cared' for per se than free range. Personally, I think battery produced eggs taste crap and I don't like the system, so we always buy free range. Organic is great, but if we organic globally, there would be a major food shortage problem - here on our farm, crop production would drop off significantly without fertiliser and pest control - and we have a mixed system of crops and livestock which supports things like soil fertility

I know a lot of people have concerns about meat at the moment, and my advice (and this is as a beef farmer) would be "eat less, eat better". I'd rather see people support butchers and farm shops (and the meat isn't always more expensive) and eat a bit less meat

I also think that Army is being very calm and reasoned - and I don't agree with what she is saying but most are being very respectful on here and that's great!

My post was directed at CanIHaveAPetGiraffePlease btw

Seventh "I can confidently say that they are not aware as they wouldn't be grazing serenely, interact happily with the farmer and walk trustingly to the slaughterhouse"

I appreciate that you are more particular about the meat you buy but it is not always as you make it out to be. Serene, happy and trust are interesting words to use when preceding the word 'slaughterhouse'.
(however confident you feel, my point still stands!)

If the entire process of breeding and farming animals for meat was as you and many others like to believe than I wouldn't have nearly so much of an issue with it.

Furthermore, I know that the majority of farmers do show care and consideration to their animals (provided that profit is considered first) but as far as I'm aware farmers do not actually slaughter the animals themselves (?) I am open to correction on that if anybody knows better....

Slaughterhouses by there nature are abhorrent places! The people who work there have a horrific job to do, and compassion, empathy and kindness are not assets in a job like that.

What is a GF please?

Bringing the market completely back to Britain would be fantastic (not just for the beef industry either). It seems like a good idea economically but LadyFT has made me see the ethical and health considerations too. So thank you!

Interesting insight from LadyFT.
I think eat less, eat better is a seriously good mantra for those you choose to eat meat and those that do not.

I live near some very large sheep farms. You see the sheep loaded into those awful lorries to go off to slaughter and you listen to them. Those sheep know EXACTLY what's going to happen.

Furthermore, I know that the majority of farmers do show care and consideration to their animals (provided that profit is considered first)

Right - so if I wasn't making any money I'd just abuse my cattle? Please. We would make more money by packing them into sheds on slats without any straw bedding, but that will never happen while I draw breath on this farm

Thanks Theoriginal. Appreciate the reply. I might have to actually go into a butchers shop! I'm quite ignorant really about meat. Usually just buy bacon, mince and chicken. But I want to eat better and healthier and willing to learn!

Sorry to tangent the discussion!

Mary, it was probably easier for me because I have never liked meat, the only meat I could stand was chicken and as my mother did English food of "meat and two veg" VOM, it wasn't unitl I was 17 or so that I knew you didn't have to eat (I can hardly type it) braising steak casserole.

I learnt how to cook veg, pulses etc, I had NEVER even seen a pulse and the most useful book was Rose Elliot which had fantastic recipes and explained everything and how why what to eat. A revelation.

The other advantage of pulses is that they are so cheap. A large bag or lentils made into a curry with loads of veg and tomatoes would feed ten for a tenner.

Furthermore, I know that the majority of farmers do show care and consideration to their animals (provided that profit is considered first

No, hully they don't. They baa because they are leaving other flock mates, and going into unfamiliar surroundings, but they don't baa because they are going to meet their maker.

Our cattle moo and crap everywhere when we put them on the wagon to go out for the summer, or even when we run them up into the handling facilities to weigh them or adminster medicines. Anything which is out of their ordinary routine causes this response.

My horse whinnies when he goes on the horsebox to a show - I promise you he doesn't think he's going to Tesco a slaughterhouse

Liza - if you mean what you say in your post it seems like we are both, mainly, on the same page.

"If the entire process of breeding and farming animals for meat was as you and many others like to believe than I wouldn't have nearly so much of an issue with it."

• it seems like a lot of people here are actively seeking meat where the process of breeding and farming is ethical. Unfortunately its never going to be the case for every farm, there will always be exceptions. I won't stop myself eating meat because there are places out there that are unethical. It's like that lady who said she was not going to marry her boyfriend until homosexual marriage was legal worldwide. Or refusing to buy new clothes until all production is ethical and fair.

There will be some risk of upsetting the animals in the time coming up to their slaughter, though this can be reduced with consideration. It isn't a reason to veto the slaughter completely.

Slaughter houses are horrible places. As are funeral homes, hospitals and crematoriums.

Animals are much cleverer than we think, research continually proves it, they just can't speak, communication is totally different. We choose to think them "dumb" and lesser much as Christians thought we could treat them with dominance rather than dominion because they didn't have souls.

I like the Jains most.

HullyGully - no they don't! They're pissed off and scared because they are being taken from the field and put in a lorry! They aren't bleating "oh no, this must mean the slaughterhouse!"

A good butcher will explain about different cuts of meat getme - and very often now good farmshops will make their own ready meals with decent meat, or oven ready 'fast foods' like kebabs, good burgers, chicken parcels etc

I'd recommend a slow cooker - so easy to use (chuck in the meat and veg) ad you can turn cheaper cuts of meat into really delicious meals

Hully. I'm up for trying more veggie recipes. And I like lentils just don't really know what to do with them! Is that a book you'd currently recommend? I've ordered Hugh fernly whatnots veg book. Would like to get a better understanding of food and how to cook!

They do know. They know their mates went in lorries and never came back. And when they get near they smell the blood and then they really know.

Giraffe, all Rose Elliots are good, have a look on Amazon and see what one might be useful.