Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder WTF would it take for people stop eating "meat"

757 replies

ElenorRigby · 13/02/2013 18:33

Just that really!

OP posts:
ArmyOfPenguins · 14/02/2013 17:40

LadyFT: "but so long as the animals are treated with respect, held in decent lairage facilities until their time comes"

Who decides when another creature has outlived its usefulness? I don't think it's respectful at all.

Still, I'm glad there is not overt cruelty on your farm.

TheOriginalLadyFT · 14/02/2013 17:42

I found your post reassuring, LadyFT. Thank you

You're welcome

I don't have a problem with people being veggie, vegan or whatever - their choice, perfectly valid whatever the reason.

I do have a problem with those people who choose that and then spread misinformation about livestock farming. The vast majority of farmers in Britain do care, and do adhere to high standards. No one should feel guilty for enjoying meat produced in those circumstances. We have an open access policy at our farm and welcome visitors to see what we do - we also encourage them to see the amazing wildlife we have on our land. Don't believe everything you hear about farmers destroying the countryside and abusing animals

ArmyOfPenguins · 14/02/2013 17:42

"Why do many consider it better to hunt than to farm?"

If you're hunting to survive it is 'better' than killing to sell on for profit to people who don't need it anyway.

In my opinion.

TheSeventhHorcrux · 14/02/2013 17:43

ArmyofPenguins - are you inferring that animals understand that they are being farmed and have the same emotional reaction to it as a human would?
As a human, my life would deteriote rapidly through anxiety and stress and hundreds of other psychological illness due to the fact I knew I was going to be killed.
The animals bred to be killed do not suffer this.
x-posting what someone said above - they live happily in the moment, and the reason they are living is for us to eat them. If we didn't, they wouldn't be living their comfortable, largely stress-free, provided for lives. (This is for the ethical farms, obv)
The aliens argument is invalid.

Liza80 · 14/02/2013 17:43

Seventh, I understand your point about the veal, however, I'm not saying that a calve should have the right to live long enough to provide a profit as meat. I am saying that a calve should have the right to be with his mother and drink the milk that nature provided for him and him only!

Although, the fact that british people won't eat veal, I think, demonstrates my point that more people would stop eating meat or at least stop to think about where they were buying it from if they were more educated on the reality of it!

furrydog more often than not animals are not killed humanely (setting aside the point that humane and killing are direct contradictions!) but even if they were, it is the living part that is relevant... a wild animal that is hunted and killed has at least had the chance to live as nature intended!

Humans are survivors and yes, we will eat/drink whatever we need to in order to survive which is presumably the reason we first ate meat/drank milk. In todays world we do not NEED those things to survive we have many options available.

There are many examples of our resourceful ability to survive... The man lost in the wilderness who ate his dog, I don't think he continued to eat dog meat after he was rescued, having acquired a taste for it!

The man who dislocated his hip while hiking, and survived by drinking his own urine, I would imagine that he was happy never to have to do that again.

And the famous true story, documented in the film 'Alive' of the plane crash survivors who ate the flesh of the deceased passengers... As far as I'm aware none of them felt compelled to continue eating human flesh once returned to civilisation!

Yes, if it is essential to our survival we can and will eat meat and indeed anything available to us! But we are lucky to live in a world of more choice than ever before and yet we continue to exploit our fellow earthlings purely for the sake of our tastebuds!

ArmyOfPenguins · 14/02/2013 17:44

LadyFT: You're hardly unbiased though.

I make no money from promoting veganism.

ArmyOfPenguins · 14/02/2013 17:45

"As a human, my life would deteriote rapidly through anxiety and stress and hundreds of other psychological illness due to the fact I knew I was going to be killed. "

How would you know you were going to be killed? You wouldn't find out until you got to the slaughterhouse.

TheSeventhHorcrux · 14/02/2013 17:47

"ArmyOfPenguins Thu 14-Feb-13 17:34:29
I would eat roadkill. Just don't fancy it."

Roadkill - animals that have been killed as a result of human intervention. Most likely have died from their injuries, therefore suffered, rather than being killed instantly.

Is it okay to eat roadkill just because it wasn't intentionally killed?

garlicblocks · 14/02/2013 17:48

Penguins, I just looked this up - out of curiosity and procrastination; I have insufficient knowledge to take a stance.

From www.gov.uk/sheep-and-goat-welfare

Castration should only be carried out where lambs will be kept beyond sexual maturity and it?s necessary to avoid welfare problems associated with managing entire males. Because of the risk of mis-mothering - which can lead to starvation - it shouldn?t be performed until the bond between ewe and lamb is established.

Castration should only be performed by a trained and competent person. The use of a rubber ring, or other device, to restrict the flow of blood to the scrotum - or tail - is only permitted without an anaesthetic if applied during the first week of life. Once a lamb reaches three months, castration must be carried out under anaesthetic by a vet.

If both tail docking and castration are necessary, performing both operations at the same time can minimise distress and the risk of mis-mothering.

The following practices are all banned by law:

penis amputation and other penile operations
tooth grinding
freeze dagging
electro-immobilisation

The answers to a lot of the questions asked are on the DEFRA website.

TheOriginalLadyFT · 14/02/2013 17:48

^My apologies. Mainly in the dairy industry then.
But there are other concerns aren't there?
www.ciwf.org.uk/farm_animals/sheep/welfare_issues.aspx^

Ah CIWF, that fount of everything true and unbiased. Not

Tail docking and castration is done with a rubber ring when the lamb is very young. The ring cuts off circulation and the parts drop off - I've done it and seen what happens. The lamb hops about for a minute or so (yes, there is some discomfort) and then it's over with as the area goes numb.

As for the mulesing - you'll note they say that happens in Australia, not here. Another reason to buy British.

Many ewes die during winter and spring because of poor body reserves to cope with winter and inadequate grazing. Many lambs are aborted or stillborn or die through disease, exposure and starvation

This paragraph is so ridiculous I hardly know where to start. If it were true, every sheep farmer would go out of business after a season. Do some ewes and lambs die? Yes, of course (as they would in nature) but most farmers go out of the their way to ensure ewes and lambs are kept in the best possible condition, and assist at lambing to help where problems occur.

ArmyOfPenguins · 14/02/2013 17:49

Anyway, creating imaginary aliens isn't supposed to be realistic (I hope!), but more to illuminate the very concept of breeding other species for pleasure and profit. I do not think we are entitled to do this. Who do we think we are?

ArmyOfPenguins · 14/02/2013 17:50

Fine LadyFT: you feel entitled to castrate lambs with rubber rings.
I don't.

TheSeventhHorcrux · 14/02/2013 17:50

ArmyofPenguins - "How would you know you were going to be killed? You wouldn't find out until you got to the slaughterhouse." - if this is the case then, fine. Would rather be killed quickly and easily by being shot in the head then in a car accident, for example like roadkill

Would I prefer to live my life all the way through? Yes. But then again, I'm human with the ability to scope out the future like that, different from an animal. Also intelligent enough to make the connection when everyone suddenly started disappearing at a certain age/weight and thinking something dodgy was going on, worrying about it etc.

TheOriginalLadyFT · 14/02/2013 17:51

LadyFT: You're hardly unbiased though. I make no money from promoting veganism

So what I says has less value because it's what we do? Or was that a polite way of calling me a liar?

TheSeventhHorcrux · 14/02/2013 17:53

ArmyofPenguins - no comment on the Roadkill though?

Liza80 · 14/02/2013 17:53

Animals are not aware that they are going to be killed?

Watch this please!
This is the least disturbing slaughterhouse footage I have found, it is in the UK and it is what we consider humane. (Tell me that sheep has no idea what is going to happen!!!)

ElenorRigby · 14/02/2013 17:54

Blimey this thread's still going !!? Grin

OP posts:
TheSeventhHorcrux · 14/02/2013 17:56

Liza - it's cruel that they killed the sheep so it knew what was coming. But that sheep lived its entire life up to that point in ignorance, so yes - animals are not aware they are going to be killed.

ArmyOfPenguins · 14/02/2013 17:56

What about,

"I'm going to create a for-profit industry that at its least harmful involves, artificial insemination, castration and enforced premature death."
"Is the industry necessary?"
"No."

TheSeventhHorcrux · 14/02/2013 17:57

*its cruel that they killed IN FRONT of the sheep.

Again, with the slow oncoming madness!

TheOriginalLadyFT · 14/02/2013 17:58

The argument is not what they 'know' at the slaughterhouse but what they 'know' while living on the farm ie they don't run round the fields in a state of mental anguish because they overheard the farmer saying he was taking them to be killed next week. A human kept by aliens in a fattening unit (can hardly believe I just typed that) would 'know' because we have a concept of self and of future - neither of which, it is thought, animals have

TheOriginalLadyFT · 14/02/2013 17:59

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about AI, army - any particular reason?

Liza80 · 14/02/2013 18:01

The seventh the question of how that sheep lived up until that point is an issue. You cannot really say that it isn't aware it's going to be killed any more than I can say it is aware. That is one question we can only speculate on.

Haven't you heard the famous news story of the bull who cried? (google it if you haven't) prompting fully grown men, perfectly used to slaughtering animals to become emotional and actually raise funds to buy the bull, saving it from slaughter.

CanIHaveAPetGiraffePlease · 14/02/2013 18:02

Ladyft, I've found your posts really reassuring. Thankyou. I just wondered if you'd provide a brief idiots guide to buying meat for someone like me that hadn't thought about it much before.

For example -you mention buy British. Before I'd just assumed that was to help our economy. It sounds like we have tighter controls?

Also is organic necessarily better. I've bought free range eggs before but don't actually know if organic meant safer or better cared for meat.

Similarly is a butcher the only option? Would an asda British organic meat be ok for example? I'm already leaning towards whole chicken and not processed stuff at the moment.

Basicall I'd like to buy meat that is safe to eat (not mixed with unidentified meat and safely reared etc) and ethicalish (fair treatment of animals at any rate)

Any guidelines?

Thankyou!

DowntonTrout · 14/02/2013 18:03

Can I just interrupt and say that I had my first ever SPAM fritter the other day and it was gorgeous.

As you were.