To say he can't go to stag do if there are going to be strippers?

[DelphineD]

I'm sorry if this ends up being long; I will try to keep it as concise as possible.

Last year DP went to a stag do (first one that has come up whilst we have been together). It was one of his closest friends, and one that I previously liked and respected. They were away for 2 nights. I had wondered if some sort of strip thing might be involved but I thought probably not as the friend was not that kind of man and DP assured me when he got back that there was nothing of the kind. I later found out (through my scarily good investigation and interrogation!!) that this was not the case. On the first night they had been to a strip club and on the second night there were topless waitresses at their apartment for about 3 hours. This info came out bit by bit. Each time DP would insist there was nothing more to tell, then I found out something else. Eventually I think I got a full confession out of him but it was difficult to be sure as he had lied so many times about it. I also got out of him that there had been topless waitresses at a work party he had attended some time before (I had suspected something wrong and he had always denied it before.) He claimed all this was not of his doing, it was not really of interest to him and he just went along with it because they were in a group and he didn't want to make a fuss etc etc. If he had had a lap dance, I would have broken up with him (friend had a lap dance and the man has gone down a lot in my estimation.) As it was I nearly broke up with him anyway. He knew how much I hated strippers and how I would feel about it, and he did it anyway. But I think the most damaging thing was the lying. I trusted him before, and he had destroyed all that.

We got over it and agreed that if there was anything like this again he would tell me the truth and face the music. He understands how much more damaging it was that he lied about it. Since then, I have been to a work party where there was a male stripper. I didn't know in advance but I did know once I got there and I could have come home. It seemed a bit hypocritical, but I went anyway. I just sat at the back, while some of the married women in my group, went up on stage, straddled the stripper, took their wedding rings off, etc etc. That made me think that I wasn't so worried about DP being present in a large room where women were stripping, it was how he behaved and the interaction that would bother me. Hence why I was more upset about the topless women in the apartment than the ones in the strip club. FWIW I believe he would have behaved in a similar way to me in his situation. But his friend having that lap dance upset me, and made me think you can't trust any man, even the ones who seem nice and like they really love their partners.

Now he has his DB's stag party coming up. It's in the city where we live, but some people will be coming from elsewhere so there will be an apartment rented again. He has said he will tell the truth about it this time. He has admitted that the best man is planning something to do with strippers but nothing is booked in yet. I'm already feeling upset about it already and I just don't want him to be around strippers at all. WIBU to say, if that is happening, I don't want you to go at all?

[scottishmummy]

essentially you don't trust dp.at all and trying to keep him on leash
you will have turbulent time in your relationship if you can't trust
this habitually setting ultimatums is no way to carry on,sort your relationship issues

[aldiwhore]

For me, it's not about strippers or topless waitress's really, it's about lying. It's also about someone who feels unable to tell the truth because of the reaction of their partner.

DH is honest to me because although I don't like certain things I don't go apeshit, I don't lecture him or patronise him, I voice my dislike of something, I say "I'd rather you didn't go but I trust you not to be an active participant" (private dance is a deal breaker... ) Saying that, he's strong enough to say 'NO' and has been known to jump in a cab home when a night out starts to veer towards tit bars, on those 'special' nights like stag do's etc, I don't agonise over who's bottom may appear in his field of vision, or who's breasts are on show. So long as he doesn't pay for exclusivity, just the entrance fee!

Likewise I've been on night's out with women where male strippers have been involved. I tended to ignore the oily man (not wishing to get oil stains on my nice clothes) and his squirty cream, and when pulled out to join in this so-called-fun, I've had spine enough to say NO (fuck off, pick on someone else)... I've still BEEN there though and if DH gave me grief for that I'd think he was being U.

[Doingakatereddy]

I find the arguments about strippers tiresome, I find breast feeding threads tiresome.

I have no idea why women can't get passionate about feminist issues such as low pay, equal pay, how to improve discrimination in the work place, how to ensure balance in directors of everything from SME's to Footsie 100 companies to how we have accepted that child benefit can be withdrawn as income is decided as a couple, yet tax allowances often aren't.

I'm not telling you what to think, just wishing we all got frenzied over something important for a change

[PrideOfChanur]

Good for you,biff and glad it doesn't bother you or the others on the thread - it would bother me.The topless waitresses in the hotel room would bother me a lot.
None of it because I'm worried DH would "do" something,but because I hate the whole stripping lap dance bit,our society which means men can pay to ogle women-and if it is a lame feminist argument,it is still what I feel .It is just ick,and knowing there are nice respectable men who think it is fine is also ick.
Looking at women on the beach or at work - fair enough,that is just life.
So I wouldn't object to the going to the stag do in itself, but I would mind if he thought it was a good idea and had no problem with it.

[seeker]

Interesting that people have to use language like "frenzied" to somehow ridicule legitimate concerns.

Well, where shall I start?

Women in the sex industry are not, dispite all suggestions to the contrary, all using it as an easy way to fund their PhDs, or doing it because they love sex so much. They are overwhelmingly doing it because they have a drug habit to feed, or because they are trafficked or abused or pimped out. Being a stripper is not merely al alternative to working in McDonalds. There are, of course, women who do this work as a completely free choice, but they are in the minority, and it is impossible to tell the difference. So using the set industry in any way is perpetuating the abuse of women. So far, so simple.

Supporing the sex industry perpetuates the "objectification" of women. That women are and should be sexually available. It's part of a continuum that ends with your teenage daughter being groped on the tube.

The sex industry perpetuates the idea that men have control and power over women. When you have naked butlers, part of what makes it entertaining is the role reversal. How funny and absurd that men should be behaving like this. Topless waitresses are just an extreme version of how society perceives women generally. And before you tell me I'm being extreme and ridiculous, have a look through a tabloid newspaper.

[pictish]

Seeker I agree with everything you said, until When you have naked butlers, part of what makes it entertaining is the role reversal. How funny and absurd that men should be behaving like this.

So you are basically saying that naked butlers are more acceptable because women view them as a laugh?

I can't agree with that. That's a cop out.

[PrideOfChanur]

Hysteria? Since when is objecting to something hysteria?


And scottish mummy,it looks from the OP,that she doesn't trust him because he lied about the original stag do - seems reasonable to me.And even if she found out about it by scarily good investigation,he still lied,repeatedly.Does sound like a problem,but I don't think it is her problem.I'd find it hard to trust anyoine who did that.

[ledkr]

But surely everyone is entitled to their opinion and feelings about strip clubs etc. that doesn't mean they can stop their partners going but that they can express their displeasure. Then it's up to the partner to decide whether to go or not and face his partners disappointment should she express it later. I'd feel the same if dh suddenly decided to go to illegal dog fights or suchlike.
As for being insecure I don't think that's the only reason but in my case I have ruined my body giving dh kids, I have had breast cancer and reconstruction, I don't have the time, inclination or money for total body hair removal, spray tans and false eyelashes so yes I absolutely would hate dh looking at other I realistically perfect women, it would make me feel awful and if I told him that he wouldn't go for that reason alone.

[RedToothBrush]

Bang on EllieArroway

I find seeker's attitude smug, patronising and pretty condensing in all honesty. Its snobbery. Its not 'being feminist' as being feminist can cover a lot of different bases and its down to personal preference and priority. There is no 'right' feminism.

A mature man will discuss issues with their partner and make sure they were happy and understood the full situation and that works both ways. In the same way, a woman behaving in an immature fashion will stamp her feet, not listen and demand their partner does not attend without discussing the matter properly.

Being an adult doesn't mean that strippers etc are off limits. In some mature adult relationships both partners will be perfectly happy with the presence of a stripper in certain contexts. The point is communicating makes the difference in what makes an adult and what doesn't.

I think seeker is mistaking her own beliefs for behaviours that make for an adult relationship.

Besides this thread isn't really about the moral virtue of stripping; every time the subject comes up, some people sieze on it to have a loud shouty platform to push their agenda. They don't listen to what the real issue is, and think the solution is to be uncompromising and to issue black and white judgments.

This is about communication, trust, sharing the same values, understanding whats important to your partner, understanding the nature of other relationships your partner might have and working with your partner in a positive way so that both parties aren't put in a situation where the other is more in control than the other.

A good adult relationship isn't about everything being perfect and 'pure' the entire time. Its about understanding how to deal with the difficult, awkward, uncomfortable situations you don't like in a positive way that suits all parties, not just one.

I hope the OP, takes that on board more than anything else. What she may decide in the end is that her beliefs about strippers are very important to her and she can't reconcile that with the person she is currently with because she can not discuss the subject with him in a constructive way. Thats fine. But so long as she understands that she has to act in a mature fashion to get a mature response in return; her current way will never achieve that.

Trust is easily broken and its hard work to build, restore and maintain. It can be done; its hard work, but possible with the right approach and right attitude. And, yeah, it also depends on whether the person you are with is also capable of doing the same and is worth the effort.

[BelaLugosisShed]

The naivety of the women on here is astounding, people really don't understand the difference between a naked butler and topless "waitresses", really ?
Even male and female strippers are totally different, the day you get male strippers spreading their arse cheeks for women to get a better view is the day they will even be remotely similar.

As said before, booking women for private events, in clubs , hotel rooms /private homes etc. is booking *prostitutes^ to provide sexual services, usually interactive/ audience participation - blowjobs in front of the boys (and worse) in hideous reality.

That's also what anything with "Gentlemens" in the title actually is, Gentlemens dinner, Gentlemens breakfast, Gentlemens sports evening, they all involve public sexual activity with prostitutes strippers .

I'm absolutely astounded at the casual acceptance (by women) of the sex industry on this thread.

[badinage]

It's not a cop-out. It relates to who has the structural power in society and part of the 'joke' is the role-reversal of men (who have that power) being in a servile, sexually objectified role towards women (who don't).

It might be crass, tasteless and lame to hire a naked butler, but it can never be the same because the power differential between men's rights and women's rights is there.

But again, I'd point out that the naked butlers that women are served by in the UK are not the same as the 'topless dancers' that men hire for parties abroad. Very few 'naked butlers' are male prostitutes and very few women at parties pay for sex. Not so in reverse, however much people want to delude themselves about these euphemisms.

[seeker]

"Seeker I agree with everything you said, until When you have naked butlers, part of what makes it entertaining is the role reversal. How funny and absurd that men should be behaving like this.

So you are basically saying that naked butlers are more acceptable because women view them as a laugh?

I can't agree with that. That's a cop out."

I was asked to explain why there is a difference between naked butlers and topless waitresses. The difference is in the power balance involved.

[badinage]

I think seeker's posts are bloody brilliant.

[seeker]

"I find seeker's attitude smug, patronising and pretty condensing in all honesty. Its snobbery. Its not 'being feminist' as being feminist can cover a lot of different bases and its down to personal preference and priority"

Absolutely. But it can't cover the support of the abuse of women. And supporting the sex industry supports the abuse of women. Leaving aside the political and philosophical objections.

[scottishmummy]

how utterly bumptious you are bela.I see because posters have temerity to disagree they are naive
frankly I think naked male butler, and topless waitress is seedy and gratuitously unnecessary
it's funny to see you deride others for not fawning and agreeing with you

[RedToothBrush]

Some people are vegetarian.
Some people are vegan.
Some people boycott certain products or shops.
Some people wear fur.
Some people refuse to wear leather.
Some people buy fair trade only.
Some people buy organic.
Some people avoid buying diamonds from certain sources.

And some people don't care, don't feel its a priority, think there's other things to worry about.

And the thing is you don't change the hearts and minds of a lot of those people by throwing a strop about it, alienating them or telling them they are stupid or just wrong. or that men are only adults if they wouldn't see a stripper

Try a different approach and people might listen rather than automatically tune out....

[BubblesPebblesx2]

It is the dishonesty that is the problem. My partner went on a stag do when our DS was 6 months old. I felt unattractive as had not expected to have so much skin left after baby was out (no-one tells you that part!) and was told there would be none of that sort of thing going on. Wouldn't have minded too much if they had but no new mum wants to learn that their OH is checking out other women whilst they're at home up to their elbows in mashed up wotsits.

2 weeks after he gets back turns out he'd point blank lied about it as our joint savings acc had had £200 taken out of in the branch where they were on said stag do. After a lot of questioning (completely justified- that money was half mine and we were saving for our deposit on our first house at the time) he admits they went to a strip club. I had told him I wouldn't have had a problem with this, he was best man and you do expect men to do this sort of thing when they get a couple of days freedom. What was not Ok was to find out another month down the line that he had actually used our savings for his own private dances. That was my bottom line and he had sprinted past it for the sake of a set of fake tits and a tight tummy.

YANBU to be upset about the the lack of truth involved. The rest I can't comment on as it's very much personal opinion.

[seeker]

"Try a different approach and people might listen rather than automatically tune out...."

What approach would you suggest?

[badinage]

A mature man will discuss issues with their partner and make sure they were happy and understood the full situation and that works both ways. In the same way, a woman behaving in an immature fashion will stamp her feet, not listen and demand their partner does not attend without discussing the matter properly.

I think you've got that the wrong way round haven't you? And how revealing that you've highlighted what you perceive to be women's immature behaviour, when we're discussing a man who allegedly didn't want to partake, but didn't have the balls to show out in front of his mates, then lied through his teeth about it to the OP until he had no choice. If that's your definition of 'mature men's' behaviour, I despair.

Conversely, there is no evidence of a woman 'stamping her feet, not listening, demanding and not discussing'. The OP has instead talked about her upset about the lies, the long discussions she's had with her partner about this and how she's listened to his views.

That's a hell of a projection you've got going on there. Ever wondered why that might be Redtoothbrush?

[ledkr]

He was best man and you do expect men to do this sort of thing when they get a couple of days freedom
I don't!

[ledkr]

I think some of you are a bit naive about what actually happens in some of these clubs. Our local lap dancing club definitely offers more than a dance and the girls sleep with the manager to qualify for a job. Nice eh and not exploitative at all?
Bil went to a "gentleman s evening a while ago and saw a stripper sit on a dildo held in the teeth of an audience member whilst she wanked him off.
Hardly harmless entertainment really is it?

[Ashoething]

If the jiggling of bodily parts in a strangers face is so normal and acceptable then exactly WHY arent there lap dancing bars for women everywhere where they are treated to a dry hump by male strippers in every major town?

Think about it....

[pictish]

I agree scottishmummy.

I'm not naive. I'm asking for a genuine reason, because I suspect we gals just may be kidding ourselves when it comes to the tables being turned. So far I haven't been offered one. That more women than men are exploited in the sex industry than men, and that less women pay for sex doesn't make naked butlers any more acceptable! It just means there's less of it...but it doesn't answer my question of what makes it ok for us.

[Ashoething]

Yep ledkr-as I said further up the thread you only have to watch one of those vile lads stags do shows to see what goes on and they probably dont show the half of it! Yet the staggering thing is that their partners waived them off happily and must have known what they were getting up too and yet they still wanted to MARRY them! eewwwww!

I have had 2 cousins go on stag do's in the past year-1 to prague and 1 to estonia. They were both quite blase on fb about what they intended to do-strippers and getting off their faces. Twats the pair of them.

[badinage]

I agree with that ledkr. I think a hell of a lot of posters on this thread haven't the first clue what happens behind the scenes in clubs - and not the foggiest about sex industry cultural norms in countries abroad.

I also don't think all posters have read the thread, especially the OP's posts. She has commented on the different cultural norms between the UK and where she lives, she's spoken eloquently about the long discussions she's had with her partner about this, she's written about the lies causing her to worry about something that had never caused her concern before, even to the extent that she was fine with her partner going on holidays with his sex-industry consumer pals without her.

But for reasons best known to themselves, posters have overlooked all that and have declared her to be a foot-stamping, controlling, uptight and immature woman.