Private schools - want to shout IT'S NOT FAIR!

[Yermina]

Went to PIL last night and heard all about sil's children's school. One of her boys is already attending a fantastic private school. Just found out his two brothers have also got places at very good private schools.

In the mean time my dc's are in classes of 31 at the local state school. My youngest needs additional support (sn) but isn't statemented (diagnosed but no statement) so doesn't get it. SIL's middle child has got into a mainstream private school that has outstanding support for children with dyslexia, which he's been diagnosed with. And will be in classes of 18.

Our middle ds is musically talented but there is really poor provision for music teaching at his state school and very few children there are learning an instrument. We struggle to pay for music lessons for him outside school.

Is it wrong of me to feel eaten up with jealousy and anger at the unfairness of a school system which privileges the children of well-off people so openly and seemingly without anyone else seeing it as something that's wrong or deeply, deeply unfair?

How would you explain to a group of children: you lot over here will have XXXX spent on your education, and lots of opportunity to develop your talents, and you lot over there will have about half as much spent on you, and will have much less attention from the teacher because there'll be twice as many of you in the class. Oh, and you kids with sn or specific gifts - unless your parents have money, you probably won't get the help you need to thrive educationally.

I know it's the way the world is but at the moment I feel bitter about it. Really really bitter. And jealous

Every time I go to my PIL's and have to hear about all the amazing thing SIL's dcs are doing at their school, their academic achievements, I want to go home and hide under the duvet and cry.

We'll never, ever be able to afford private education. We'll never be able to afford to move to an area with really good state schools. We'll never be able to get our children into church schools as we're not church goers, and our local grammar schools (2) are bursting at the seams with children from the local private prep schools, who bus their students in to take the 11+ en mass.

It's just so fucking unfair. It really is. I just want to get that off my chest.

That is all.

The only 'decent' CofE school around here needs 2 or 3 years regular church attendance for starters. Since its where that 'Man of the People' David Cameron send his kids, getting in for mere mortals is pretty tough (even though there were closer schools to him). Where's the level playing field there?

I hate the idea that people assume that state schools are ok/adequate and private are all like Eton. Inner City schools are a hell of a lot different. That's what is really unfair. The other 'good' schools near me are Catholic, Jewish and Arabic. How's that for fairness? I have a pigs chance in a mosque of getting my child into any of those, but CofE schools will (and rightly so) accept my child, regardless of religion (apart from Dave's school).

Fairness? Don't talk to me about fairness. The powerful send their kids to state schools to show how 'down to earth' they are. So Tony and Cherie's kids did ok from State? Nothing to do with the family connections then? Life isn't fair. No it isn't but there's no point bleating about it. If you don't like your child's education, get on the Board of Governors, move house, or baton the hatches, save every bloody penny and go private.

With the greatest of respect to those who think Private Schools should be abolished...exactly how far do you want to take this? With al that spare cash from not paying for private school are you going to also try to legislate that these parents cannot pay for extra tuition, or Summer School, or Equestrian lessons, or any number of other extra-curricular activities available to enrich the lives of children with parent's fortunate to be able to afford it?

There are some amazing generalisations on this thread
I am the person that everyone criticised
I have children at both state and private
It does mean that I am also have experience of both and probably less biased than most
I don't even know where to start with some of the comments made on here. The thing that stands out the most are the assumptions that are made about children who I to private school. I can only assume some are said out of bitterness

*go to

but (quite rightly) the teacher needed to tailor teaching to every child in that 30+ class and that meant working to the lowest common denominator.

Not so: when I was doing a PGCE back in the mid nineties the big thing was 'differentiation' so that you had to prepare work which stretched all abilities.

trustissues there was a very intersesting thing about trying to lower 'shadow education' as they named it.

JustGetting...you're kidding right?

I agree Tom. I am not a fan of private schools and will not send my children to one, even though I can afford to. But some of the generalisations made about kids at private schools are bang out of order!
In fairness though, not so much on this thread, but there is a fair bit of bashing the other way around elsewhere on mn.

Two people on minimum wage can afford to send on child to private school if they cut back on everything else". Flatbread would you like to explain how that's possible?

Assume two people on min wage get £21k a year combined.

After school fees, £12k a year or £1,000 a month.

In the north, you can get a one bed apartment for rent at £450 a month. Council tax and utilities for £150 a month. £250 a month for groceries. £150 a month for emergencies or savings or clothes.

This is not taking into account any subsidies or child benefits from the government.

Never terribly keen on being told what I'm 'actually saying'... What I'm actually saying is not to do with 'better' or 'worse' education, because I don't particularly perceive private schools as offering the latter. I'm saying life isn't fair for all the derailing reasons people try to reduce this thread to ('oh ho! So you disagree with private education? I expect you'd like everyone to eat gruel in your foolish pursuit of fairness....').

I think (as I may have said on other occasions) that everyone would be better off if everyone went to school together. Even though some things will always be unfair. An eminently scoffable-at idea, but nonetheless, I do.

As far as I can see there are many people on this thread who don't think of children as people in their own right - with a right to equality of opportunity, or the chance to grow up in a meritocracy.

As long as we have one of the most divided and unequal systems of education in any developed country, we'll continue to fail children.

I'm incredibly sad at the number of people who approach this subject from the view of 'I work hard and I've got the right to spend my money how I want' and 'Life's unfair - so what. Suck it up'.

I thought that most people wanted society to be fairer.

Clearly not.

Private school fees, on average are around £11k a year. You can get decent schools at £9 a year.

"Two people on minimum wage can afford to send one child to private school, if they cut back on everything else (assuming they live outside the SE)"

Well, I'm in the SE so it doesn't apply.

Incidentally - what are you assuming this imaginary couple would pay in rent? Commuting costs? Council tax? What about their other children? The cost of childcare for them if the parents are both out at work all day?

Assume two people on min wage get £21k a year combined.

But they don't. Ever heard of tax and national insurance?

I think it really is a postcode lottery. I thank my lucky stars I landed where I did, because my DD is in the catchment for a wonderful school with an equally wonderful secondary school to follow.

They are the kind of schools were people rent in the area without living there just to get in. Although it may sound it, the area itself is not inordinately expensive, and I have paid more to live in dire places.

There is a private school in our village, but it would have been to much of an expense for not enough gain IMO (all of DD's friends are going to the school she is, only one is going to the private school). I did however have a conversation with 2 teachers from the private school who harped on about children reading young etc. but I believe that as previously stated on this thread, that support and learning time at home are what sets children apart.

I am lucky in that I only want one child, so it is most likely she will have a tutor outside of school, and that I will pay for to have music and language lessons. However if I couldn't afford to pay for this, I would teach her it myself. I can play instruments, speak other languages and teach lessons apart from maths obviously I would rather have someone qualified to do it, but if money was tight I could do it myself.

Yemina

Is there anyway you could teach your DC's a bit more at home on top of what they are learning? Do day trips that reinforce what they are being taught at school? My SM is a teacher and she said the ones that do best are the ones who have it reinforced at home.

Also are there any teenagers that you know that play the instrument your DS does? You could pay them a bit of money to help teach him. Youtube can also be great for learning an instrument.

Right flatbread, so this couple are supposed to live in a one bedroomed apartment with their one child ...? If I was that kid, I think I'd rather go to a normal school to be honest!

I simply cannot see how removing choice will result in fairness.

I mean no one advocates banning owning property to improve, social housing do they?
No one suggests that banning private pensions will result in a better state provision...because that would be absurd.

I'm really not trying to derail, Original, if it's me you're referring to. It's a reasonable question. If we're going to talk about fairness is it fair to legislate those who are financially better off on how they spend their money? I find that an appalling idea. Just like I find the notion that people who are on benefits should be legislated on how they spend their money equally appalling.

There's a reason why things are so much cheaper in the north - lack of work means that's all the market can bear.

Who in London would be able to rent a flat for £450?

Flatbread, what if your minimum wage couple don't live "In the north"?

A one bed appartment - for a family which includes a secondary school-age child?

You could share a bedroom with mum and dad here but unfortunately they'd still be quite far short of the £16k it would take per year to send you as a day pupil at the nearest private school.

Equality of opportunity though doesnt just equate to access to education.

Alot of it - which has been echoed throughout this thread - is the parents attitudes, and the home life of the child.

Going to a private school doesnt shield any child from problems at home which will hamper his/her school life.

Op seeing as you feel so upset - what about tackling the problem of your in laws first and stop them running salt into your wounds?

Trustissues, no, it was on the Education topic some time ago and fascinating.

JustGetting - any chance you have a link? I'd love to take a look.

Incidentally - I don't think that private schools should be abolished.

But that we should massively lower the ratio of children to teachers in schools where many children are disadvantaged. Perhaps so the ratios are nearer those in the schools that practically all members of the cabinet send their children to.

Also that all children in state schools should have better access to arts and sports education.

And that this should be funded by removing the charitable status of private schools, imposing VAT on private school fees (if they don't have VAT already. After all - private education is a luxury item.... ) and raising rates of tax on people earning 100K a year. Oh, and means testing the winter fuel allowance.

What ever it takes to make our education system more equal.

Private schools could always lower their fees by increasing the ratio or child to teacher after all. Because where the vast majority of children are bright, compliant and well supported (as they are in private schools) classes of 40+ wouldn't really be a problem. They're not in Korea anyway. It's just in settings where you have issues surrounding behaviour, a very wide spectrum of ability, and significant numbers of children with SN that small classes make a really big difference.

Trustissues this is the one from MN: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/1325152-Absolutely-FASCINATING-EU-report-about-shadow-education-private-tutoring

There were some more elsewhere.