Private schools - want to shout IT'S NOT FAIR!

[Yermina]

Went to PIL last night and heard all about sil's children's school. One of her boys is already attending a fantastic private school. Just found out his two brothers have also got places at very good private schools.

In the mean time my dc's are in classes of 31 at the local state school. My youngest needs additional support (sn) but isn't statemented (diagnosed but no statement) so doesn't get it. SIL's middle child has got into a mainstream private school that has outstanding support for children with dyslexia, which he's been diagnosed with. And will be in classes of 18.

Our middle ds is musically talented but there is really poor provision for music teaching at his state school and very few children there are learning an instrument. We struggle to pay for music lessons for him outside school.

Is it wrong of me to feel eaten up with jealousy and anger at the unfairness of a school system which privileges the children of well-off people so openly and seemingly without anyone else seeing it as something that's wrong or deeply, deeply unfair?

How would you explain to a group of children: you lot over here will have XXXX spent on your education, and lots of opportunity to develop your talents, and you lot over there will have about half as much spent on you, and will have much less attention from the teacher because there'll be twice as many of you in the class. Oh, and you kids with sn or specific gifts - unless your parents have money, you probably won't get the help you need to thrive educationally.

I know it's the way the world is but at the moment I feel bitter about it. Really really bitter. And jealous

Every time I go to my PIL's and have to hear about all the amazing thing SIL's dcs are doing at their school, their academic achievements, I want to go home and hide under the duvet and cry.

We'll never, ever be able to afford private education. We'll never be able to afford to move to an area with really good state schools. We'll never be able to get our children into church schools as we're not church goers, and our local grammar schools (2) are bursting at the seams with children from the local private prep schools, who bus their students in to take the 11+ en mass.

It's just so fucking unfair. It really is. I just want to get that off my chest.

That is all.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Pugs that is just wrong. They can do one or two activities if they want, although there's no reason to assume there won't be things to do at and after school. The tutor assumption is silly too.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

I think option A can work out quite well too pugs

My DC's have enjoyed choosing activities that they've each been particularly interested in.

[TomDudgeon]

Lots if people believe all sorts of weird thing. Doesn't mean they're right though. Most parents of children at private schools are nice normal people who don't make weird pronouncement a or judgements. Just like most parents of children at state schools.
Those of us who have both just get battered by these judgements from the 'extremists' from both sides

[LittleChimneyDroppings]

. . .put VAT on school fees, so that a bit more gets fed into some of the shite schools out there

Why should they. People who pay for private also for a state school place they don't take up. Why should they pay extra for the shite schools? If people feel so strongly about it, then everyone should pay extra to improve the state schools, not 5 per cent of the school population, who are already paying twice as it is.

[Spamspamspam]

VAT on school fees ha ha ha ha ha - good one!

[pugsandseals]

Don't agree with paying VAT on school fees, we pay twice as it is & we already pay tax on our earnings meaning that a meagre £50k has to pay 40%

[seeker]

"People who pay for private also for a state school place they don't take up" now that's their choice, you see. If they choose not to use state education that's up to them. If they wanted to they could.

That's how taxation works.

[Narked]

Seriously, what do you think 'shite' schools are? They're schools where the teachers have to spend loads of teaching time helping DC to get basic stuff that they should have already picked up at home. Schools where the behaviour of some DC is so disruptive that those children who do want to learn haven't got a chance. Schools where good qualified teachers don't want to work because they're sick of being verbally and physically assaulted by the pupils and parents.

The families make the schools.

[seeker]

Narked- I think for some on here "shite" and "state" are synonyms.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

You don't 'pay twice', you pay once, into the pot, like we all do - and then you don't like what's in the pot so you make your own arrangements.

I don't think I should pay VAT on my car's repairs: by driving it, I am freeing up a space on the pavement - sorry, the shite pavement - for other people, and I've paid for the pavement and the road anyway. Pedestrians should be going down on their knees and thanking me for not being on the pavement.

[Narked]

It's amusing when people continue to put forward the idea that 'pushy' parents drive other people's DC out of 'outstanding' schools. They don't stop to think that we'll behaved DC with high academic expectations actually helps create an outstanding school.

[Narked]

Well

[rollmopses]

Why can't there be special measures' schools for chronically disruptive pupils. With strict rules and enforcement of the said rules.
Lump all the troublemakers into special institutions with discipline to rival that of the army.
It would enforce strong work habits and discipline and could save many of its pupils from life of crime etc.

[Narked]

I don't think that's true at all. I think that for some on here private is synonymous with places like Eton. That's not he reality for the vast majority of parents who send their DC private. The majority would choose state if they could get their child into a decent school. Who wants to be blowing £12k+ per year per child??? That's why Grammars are so popular with those same parents. They want there DC at schools where all the DC are there to achieve the bet possible results, not where those predicted B s are left to it because that's good enough.

[LittleChimneyDroppings]

Sure I don't mind paying a little more to bring the worst schools up to standard. As long as the rest of the population who are actually using those schools pay extra to bring them up to standard too. Hell, if a bit of extra cash was the answer, maybe I'd even use them myself.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

I do somewhat agree that they're paying twice for their children's schooling, but also that this is their choice. I think charging VAT might be a step too far !
But I think if they have charitable status they could be doing more to deserve that - sharing their facilities sometimes, offering more substantial bursaries to more children, putting on summer school activities at affordable rates - that kind of thing.

[LittleChimneyDroppings]

the families make the schools

I know. I wonder what an injection of cash to schools would do to actually make disinterested families interested.

[MrsBethel]

TheOriginalSteamingNit

Spot on. This whole "don't make me pay twice" argument is bollocks.

Before I receive my wages my employer will take off PAYE, employer's NI, employee's NI, if I'm lucky my child benefit will be cut and my personal allowance will be diminished.

And, yes, after all that, if I buy a Kit Kat fucking Chunky I have to pay VAT. And the shop and manufacturer pay other taxes too, and their staff pay tax, and, and, and. . .

We have VAT on luxuries. We don't have it on some essentials like most foods, kids clothes, equipment for disabled people. Who would really argue that private education isn't a luxury?

[Jamillalliamilli]

Narked the point is that when the well heeled shrink the catchment area with their well behaved DC with high academic expectations, they push well behaved local poorly heeled DC with high academic expectations, who can't move house and buy in somewhere else, out of their local school and across the borough where they can't do seperate sciences and are pushed into Land Enviroment Btec instead as a 'high flyer' and are at risk of being stabbed because they're from the wrong post code turf.

[seeker]

" They want there DC at schools where all the DC are there to achieve the bet possible results, not where those predicted B s are left to it because that's good enough."

And you know this actually happens in schools in real life because?

[Saski]

The only people that VAT fees on schools would hurt is the seemingly "virtuous" private school parents (I base this on the sentiment in this thread) - not high-flying city wankers or captains of industry, but rather the sacrifice-everything-for-school-fees crowd.

[seeker]

And?

Why should a luxury like private school have charitable status and be VAT free?

And why is it better to pay private school fees by saving up (I won't use the word "sacrifice" in this context) than by earning megabucks?

[Narked]

There are 'special' schools for disruptive pupils. No-where near enough capacity exists and I'm not sure if they actually manage to he those DC a decent education or just warehouse them and keep them out of the system. There are dozens more schools all over the UK where teachers won't confront behaviour because they've been attacked too many times with no comeback for those doing the attacking!

I have a family friend with over 35 years of teaching experience who does short term cover. She had a school begging her to come in on a permanent basis to spend one on one time with a particular girl. The reason being, whilst on a week long stint there, she pulled her out of whole school assembly for seriously disruptive behaviour and got her sitting quietly doing work in an empty classroom.

Every bloody TA and teacher was in the room when she kicked off and none of them dealt with it. Even the head. They were all too afraid that the girl would physically attack them - she had done several times before. They seemed to think she was some kind of super teacher and chased her for months afterwards suggesting different hours/ options that might suit her better.

The girl was 10.

[Pigsmummy]

I am confused as to what job you have that is "exclusive to London"??? Beefeater? Guard at Buckingham palace? Courtier to the Queen/House of lords? Because you are choosing to live in one of the most expensive places in the world, if you relocate then you will get more for your money, it might take time to find the right job but it would be worth it if you get your dream of children in private education? I don't know of anyone that didn't make sacrifices for their dreams but know loads of people sitting on their dreams because the won't make sacrifices. There is a transport system and motorway network outside of London, I live 220 miles away from my folks and our relationship is stronger than ever.

[Narked]

I know it happens in real life because schools are measured on A-C grades.