are fathers equal to mothers?

[tittytittyhanghang]

Regarding parenting babies/toddlers. I thought they were? If a mother and father are no longer together they surely it is important and right for that child to maintain an equal relationship with both parents (given that both parents love the child and want as deep and loving relationship with the child as possible). Bars breastfeeding then, i dont understand how mothers are somehow superior to fathers and a baby/toddler 'needs' to be around the mother at all times, (I actually find this argument deeply insulting to mothers who have went back to work and left their babies in the care of childminders etc) whereas it would only need to be around the father a couple of hours a week. AIBU to think this is more to do with the mothers insecurities and that in fact a baby would be cope fine spending more than a couple of hours/overight with the father.

This probably is a thread about a good few threads i've read on mn, so flme me if you feel the need but im a bit irked (and shocked) that the likes of this can be said - 'That aside don't talk about your rights as you don't have any, she as the childs mother & primary carer calls the shots so the sooner you get your head round that the better you'll get along.' and hardly anyone challenges it.

HopAndSkip, can we also accept that there are cases where mother and baby do bond strongly, but where the father is also able to bond strongly with his baby.

A strong bond with one parent doesn't have to negate a strong bond with the other parent.

Leaving my babies with dh never felt like leaving them- he was a kind of extension of me. Leaving them with a childminder, babysitter or other relative was a totally different matter; that was something I needed time with.

Ridiculous to suggest a newborn is ff just so Dad can have overnight or equal contact! My bf DS3 would not have expressed milk or bottle till much older. I agree with the posters who said the mother is generally more important to a newborn (having carried the baby for nine months and bf etc) unless there are unusual circumstances. Both parents are important but in different ways. It should be about what is best for baby not father.

Has op been back yet or was she just shit stirring!

There is no way a man who has left their pregnant partner should have a say in whether to allow his ex, the mother, to breastfeed! The mothers choice, end of.

I suspect some of the bizarre posts on here are by OW?

Elizaregina were you on a wind up in this thread?

Not as such no, some interesting things were raised on another thread and I wondered if some things could be defended; if you try and walk in someone elses shoes it can help you understand the other side

Interesting reading.

I FF both my DSs and i must admit that i was hung up, at first, on the idea that there was nothing "special" about me because, as i saw it " anyone" could feed him

Then i came to see it as a wonderful thing. DH was as bonded to them as i was, right from the first day.

Now i see it as one of those things. The quality of the relationship depends on the indivduals concerned. In theory, both parents are equally important, if they are allowed to be, and can be bothered.

In practice, i probably know more of the practical details of my dcs lives as i was a sahm for 10 years, but i am not the more important parent. Luckily we complement each other. I hope my dcs never have to lose contact with either of us.

Have to say I strongly suspected Eliza was on the wind up too.

The bit about mums expressing to enable the OW to bond with the baby and co-sleep with dad and baby was exquisite

This debate is very much predicated on the fact of breastfeeding. Dont the majority of women FF?

In utter agreement with freckled leopard and noble giraffe
Incidentally, sounds like a good mix at a funky zoo.

Cory

I agree with what you have written on this thread

Elizaregina. . i hate that argument that babies can survive on x y or z. Think we all aim higher than survival.

Thanks for the explanation elizaregina, I thought your comments on here seemed incompatible with your posts on the other thread!

I think there is no perfect easy answer when it comes to parents who have split up before or shortly after birth of a DC, and what the arrangements should be. Like pretty much everything to do with shared parenting / step-families / blended families...it's complicated, not entirely 'natural' and requires work.

I guess that if two people have split up at this stage, there's a good chance there is bad feeling or maybe even irresponsibility on at least one side, which would make it harder to work through these already complicated issues fairly.

My DP and his ex split up when their DC was less than a year old - but it was and is very amicable. DP had his DC Fri - Mon every other week from (IIRC) 10 months onwards.

I think that this situation can potentially bring out the best in some fathers, as it forces them to take full responsibility for their child's range of needs early on, to come to terms with what they need and how to care for them, no chance of leaving night wakes, exhausting days and shitty nappies to the mothers. I think this was at least partially the case for my DP. He's not the most domesticated of men in many senses, but when it comes to his DS's needs - practical and emotional - he is fantastic. Part of me thinks that if he had stayed with his ex, he probably wouldn't have ended up doing half as much of the 'work' side of things as he did, and might not have been as responsible and knowledgable a father because of it.

Ive not disappered, just attending to pesky rl stuff getting in the way of mn work/kids/house the list is endles. I actually think the bf thing is a bit of a red herring given the low percentages of bf, but i do think that for an older baby, at least trying to express feed to give a father some time isn't asking for much. If it doesn't work, then so be it, at least it was tried. Im not actually advocating 50/50 all the time neither, I understand sometimes this is not possible, but theres a whole realm of differences between 50/50 and the supervised one hour a week because baby won't cope away from mum. I dont think ive every mentioned OW, because I dont think a having/not having a new partner should have relevance to how much time a father is being allowed to spend with his child.

Hopandskip

My DH was as good, better at times as I found sleep deprivation a killer, at settling our sons, even though he worked FT. I am wondering if my experience of having a DH who is as competent and bonded as me, is unusual.

I'm not sure. i do know several women who have controlled access to their DCs. and i know several men who have shown too little interest.

Even a court does not expect a ebf baby to be given formula if that is against the Mother's wishes (as it would be seen as contradictory to the pro bf messages) until 12 months old.

They also have NO powers to insist that a mother expresses bm so that contact can take place, as NOT every mother can express.

(And this IS true. I expressed easily for DD, DS1 and DS2, but with DS3, I could express for an hour and only get half an ounce.)

What the courts DO advise for a bf baby under a year old is 'little and often'.

So contact WITH the Mother there, 2-3 times a week for 2-3 hours, usually in the Mother's home.

And I'm not talking out of my arse here - my Ex and I split up when DS3 was just 4mo, and it went to court as I was NOT going to start ff just because we had split up, when we had decided TOGETHER, BEFORE DS3 was even born, that I would bf for AT LEAST 6 months, if not a year.

(It's a bloody good job I stuck to that, too - it turns out that DS3 is anaphylactic to dairy, so ff would have LITERALLY killed him!)

Ex came to the house 2-3 times a week, for 2-3 hours at a time, after work. He did dinner, bath, story, bed.

He came round for 4-5 hours once a week, and dealt with everything bar feeds.

Once DS3 was around 8mo, he could take him out locally for about an hour.

Then once I stopped bf at 12mo, he gradually increased the time he took him out for.

DS3 has a better bond with his Dad than DS2 - and Ex was there the whole time with DS2!

If a baby was in danger of attack, who would be most likely to go in and risk their lives for the baby? Or would their reflex action be equally quick?

Totally hypothetical, and a situation most of us will never know the answer to, but I have my suspicions as to who it would have been for my DC.

Who could provide best financially for our DC? I know the answer.

Who wants to spend more time with the baby?

Are fathers and mothers equal to a baby?

I would say mothers are initially more important, with fathers becoming more important than mothers in teenage years. Of course there will always be exceptions to this, but this is how it is in my life.

of course my ex is as important to ds as I am, of course we both love him and want the best for him but in my situation my life revolves around ds, our relationship is closer and I understand ds better than the ex does even though he sees him every week

I try not to interfere but I often have to remind the ex of things I have to set things out and it is draining sometimes I think fuck it let him just get with things but he is so wrapped up in himself and i have to think what is best for ds. I am a bitch at the moment because I will not allow him to take him to Singapore for a long weekend he has never taken him abroad and it is too far but of course I am trying to control him even though I have said closer to home would be better for a first trip abroad. And Singapore for a weekend

Now that DS3 is 2yo, I would say that my Ex and I are 'equal parents', DESPITE him having no access without me present until DS3 was 8mo, DESPITE him having no more than an hour's unsupervised access (due to DS3's frequent feedings, long story, allergy & TT related), DESPITE him not having DS3 overnight at all until he was 18mo (that one was due to his living arrangements - I was happy as was he to have overnights as soon as bf stopped, but his LL thought otherwise...), DESPITE him still only being able to have him overnight once every 8 weeks even now at 2yo (again, LL related).

It may have taken two years, and a LOT of teeth gritting and putting up with my Ex constantly in my home from me, but it has paid off, because now at 2yo, my DS3 is as bonded to his Daddy as he is to me.

Because my Ex wasn't allowed to wrench him away overnight at a stupidly young age, bf could continue, AND I bit my tongue and let him come to mine for access. Even though he had been a total arse, and a crap dad before we split up.

Putting DS3's needs first, however hard if has been for me to do, given the circumstances, has been absolutely the best thing to do as now DS3 has an equal bond with both his parents.

But NFW would I be even attempting to express my bm so that any Ex's bit of fluff OW can feed OUR newborn baby. I would sooner put my arm in the blender and switch the blender on.

And, as above, even a mother who has successfully expressed three times before may be unable to express the fourth time. And, as in my case, be exceedingly perplexed as to why!

Merry that all sounds v sensible to me, inlcuding the arm blender bit , however if a baby did go to its fathers and OW at a young age - there is nothing to stop them co sleeping even if they didnt mean too.

Equally important- yes
The same - no
IMO a child needs a mother AND a father to provide different emotional and developmental needs.
Makes sense to me.
Due to our gender 'roles' becoming slightly less rigid in recent times though i don't see why two parents can't be flexible in adapting where society would otherwise instil upon them (eg growing more nurturing) or changing their typical gender stereotype to suit their individual family

TBH I don't think it is possible for everything to be equal all the time and anyone who thinks otherwise is, at best, fooling themselves.

In an ideal world, notwithstanding the tiny baby stage and breastfeeding, mothers and fathers should start from a level playing field, but there are so many variable it is impossible to maintain that status quo in the majority of situations.

In most, even these days, Mum will probably be primary carer on a practical level, even if working which will have a bearing on the situation.

If Mum goes back to work and Dad becomes primary carer, the pendulum swings back the other way to a degree.

I'll probably get flamed for this, but in some circumstances I think the gender of the child can have an effect. We have just one DD. DH grew up in a family of boys with a mum who has always had very poor relationships with the women in her life and admits that she generally doesn't get on with other women. He also attended a single sex school. As a result he has no clue about girls relationships/development issues.

At this precise point in time when DD is having to deal with all the ins and outs of friendship groups, girly bickering and the start of puberty, she needs me more on an emotional level, simply because DH wouldn't know where to start with advising/dealing with some of the stuff she's having issues with. Doesn't mean that he's not a great dad in virtually every other respect, or that there aren't other Dads out there who would be perfectly capable of dealing with raging pre-pubescent female hormones.

It is just an individual thing.

I'm sorry but the thought of a recently separated XH co-sleeping with my newborn baby and his new gf, after giving the baby bottles of expressed milk would drive me absolutely, impossibly jealous, demented and crazy. There is NO WAY in the flipping world I would agree to that if I was recently separated. And I like to think that I am calm, rational, even-handed. I also believe in equal parenting (but, one primary residence for the first year). But honestly, you'd have to have no soul to say that the thought of that shouldn't affect a mother.

The whole thought of the possibility of co-sleeping with another woman is just horrific to most mothers. I guess most fathers would feel the same way about mum's new boyfriends, granted.

It really depends imo Some fathers definitely deserve to be equals. Some don't. So they aren't.