are fathers equal to mothers?

[tittytittyhanghang]

Regarding parenting babies/toddlers. I thought they were? If a mother and father are no longer together they surely it is important and right for that child to maintain an equal relationship with both parents (given that both parents love the child and want as deep and loving relationship with the child as possible). Bars breastfeeding then, i dont understand how mothers are somehow superior to fathers and a baby/toddler 'needs' to be around the mother at all times, (I actually find this argument deeply insulting to mothers who have went back to work and left their babies in the care of childminders etc) whereas it would only need to be around the father a couple of hours a week. AIBU to think this is more to do with the mothers insecurities and that in fact a baby would be cope fine spending more than a couple of hours/overight with the father.

This probably is a thread about a good few threads i've read on mn, so flme me if you feel the need but im a bit irked (and shocked) that the likes of this can be said - 'That aside don't talk about your rights as you don't have any, she as the childs mother & primary carer calls the shots so the sooner you get your head round that the better you'll get along.' and hardly anyone challenges it.

[2aminthemorning]

A newborn baby is only out of the womb a short time. Their needs haven't changed that much in the short time 'outside' - being held close to Mummy's chest, recognising the familiar heartbeat and smell, learning how to feed and coming to appreciate the security of a familiar pair of arms - all this is primarily one care giver's workd. Those posters pressing for 'equal' parenting don't realise that a newborn baby is still inextricably linked to Mum's body. For a number of months, the newborn grows closer to Mum as the relationship deepens. This is just the way a baby develops. (Not to say Dad couldn't take that role if he had to, of course).

I agree that a father's role is vital and significant and, yes, in any humane perspective, he has 'rights' to the child. But this idea that a baby can share out her affections between parents according to whichever one of them wants a turn is really missing the point. Fathers need to have a healthy respect for a new mum's emotional state. It's in the baby's best interests to have a calm mum - and calmness is not something that can be conjured up with talk of rights and legalities. Telling a first-time mum that she must surrender her baby to someone else, for however short a time, is incredibly stressful. That is going to have a knock-on effect for baby. A new mum is not necessarily able to think rationally about the improbability of her baby dying/being injured when away from her. She will just panic. Given the vulnerability of her condition (and the fact that she is probably even tireder than usual as a result of having to do so much more on her own), I don't think she should have to. Condescending? Perhaps. But true. And yes, a new mum does have a right to have her baby in her presence at all times, if that is what she wants. She's the one with the package of hormones, after all.

I understand a father's panic when it looks like a precedent is being set for relatively short access periods in the baby's primary residence. He needs to be reassured about this. He also needs to take responsibility for the welfare of his baby's mum insofar as he can, doing all he can to support and respect her at this important time. Given that a baby can't be in two places at once, it's much more realistic to expect Dad to take a bit of a hit. It will do his relationship with baby no long-term damage and Mum will be much happier, making for a more contented baby. And in all likelihood a better supply of milk if BF.

[2aminthemorning]

Spoken as one who can hear her baby roar down the hall as she 'co-sleeps' with Daddy :)

[Unacceptable]

YABU Fathers are Not equal to Mothers. I'm not saying Mothers are better I much prefer my Father but they are often equally important as others have said.

Sometimes Fathers aren't only unequal but are completely shite, useless and abusive.
Of course Mothers can be too but if you've started this thread because of perceived Father-bashing I wonder if you have come to that conclusion after threads where there has been an uninvolved or worse abusive Father who is using his 'rights' as a weapon to cause harm or distress?

A lot of Mums try to limit access to safeguard their DC, I know I did. It's often the hardest thing to do when your DC are crying out for their Father, when you desperately want them to be an equal parent and to love and care for the DC you created together.

Many responses when a poster asks about contact following separation come from Mothers who have experienced dealing with a Father who caused concern when it came to contact and so their solutions/answers/advice are coloured by their own experience.

Having said all that it is true that some Mothers are assholes who use their DC as a weapon and use contact as a tool for 'payback'

[Nicknamegrief]

Surely 'equality' depends on both the Father and Mother.

My husband is brilliant with our children, he can be their favourite however when I was in hospital for 3 days two of them really struggled emotionally with my absence, when their Dad is away for months bar a short period of adjustment they don't even blink and I don't observe any change in them when he goes away for short period of time. He is missed but their is no impact upon their behaviour.

This is more a case though of equality not meaning the same in my opinion. I would not be as good as Mum without the support of my husband/children's dad and I would say that's vice versa however our roles are very different. We are equal in importance in our children's lives but not the same and how you define which of us is more important would depend on what is seen as more important at that time.

[MerlotAndMe]

Yeh, depends on individual set of parents.

Even before we split up my children's father was not an equal parent to me. I bore them, delivered them, breastfed them while he sat on his arse with the tv remote control and a tube of pringles, shshshshing me. They have his sur name though. ( [grr] ) I was getting up in the night for two of them at one point. When I left he wouldn't pay maintenance although he wanted to see them about every six weeks or so. He truly believes he is equally important, he believes in fact that he's more important, that all the work should be mine because I'm worthless compared to him.........but of course as I read in a fortune cookie once, all your rights are found a mere mile beyond your responsibilities. (something like that).

And that sums it up for me.

[Astr0naut]

It's a tricky one.

As the mother doing the birth/bf/off work for 9 months thing, I was definitely the one who worked hardest in the beginning, although Dh did all he could.

Now the kids are older, I would say we parent equally, and I would never say that either of us id best for the children, although there do seem to be differences in the ways the children approach us and we them.

e.g.
I come home from work and immediately nteract with kids; dh bustles about in the kitchen, then goes and gets changed.

Dh can read a paper; I get jumped on.

Neither kid gets jealous when the other is with him; all hell breaks loose if I cuddle one (dcs are 3 and 14 months)

I understand instantly what kids what; dh takes ages, cue much hysteria.

I'm still the first out of bed in the middle of the night, most of the time.

[5madthings]

Eliza there is a very good reason for a fathers girlfriend/partner not to co-sleep because it is a SIDS risk!

I think dads are OK to co-sleep on their own but the new partner should not as she is not the child's mother.

[Crinkle77]

I have to agree with the OP. It is not fair that a father may only get to see their child one weekend in two. Although I do recognise that there are some fathers who should not see their children for whatever reason and that there have to be boundaries in place so the child has a good routine but it does seem unfair that if the father pays maintenance and has been a good dad that they hardly get to see them.

[jellybeans]

Great post 2aminthemorning

[CSLewis]

There seem to be a number of assumptions underlying the OP and many others on here; mainly that 'equality' means 'sameness'; that being a mother is no different from being a father; that 'parenting' is the same whether being done by the mother or father.

I disagree with all these assumptions. That does not mean that I don't think that mothers and fathers have equally important roles to play in the upbringing of their children: it does mean that I think those roles are different, because men and women are different. And I think that a child's mother is uniquely suited to being the primary carer of her child. This website is not called "Person-Net" for a reason.

I know I'm going to be accused of being gender-deterministic, or of vilifying mothers who return to work and leave their babies with professional childminders. This is not my intention at all; however, I do believe that it minimises the importance of the maternal bond - and therefore of women - to state that if a baby's physical needs are being met by a competent, or even caring, child-care professional, then this is qualitatively the same as that baby being cared for by its mother, or father, or other personally, consistently 'attached' adult.

I think a whole generation of women have believed the lie that they are not equal to men unless they are financially independent; that they have little value, or right to respect, unless they are contributing to the economy directly via the workforce.

In order to be happy with their new role as "same-as-men",women have then had to be convinced that their babies are just as well-off in child-care as with them. Does anyone on here really believe that? That a child-care professional is as good as a mother? And if they don't believe that, how has it happened that women end up in a position where they are forced to sacrifice their child's welfare for the sake of their own financial independence?

That was a rhetorical question; I really don't believe that a mother would deliberately make a choice she thought was detrimental to her child if there were other alternatives available; but the whole set-up of society now makes it very difficult to support a family, let alone own a home, unless both parents are working. And if both parents work, their children are in child-care. And in order to justify that 'necessity', women need to convince themselves that qualitatively their children are no worse off than if they were at home, being cared for by a parent (preferably, according to a few thousand years of evolution, their mother). And by accepting that bit of double-think, they devalue and do themselves out of the most important job any human being has ever had to do in the history of the world: raising the next generation of humankind. And our government is perpetuating that double-think by constantly pressuring women to return to work so that they can also provide a job for whoever will be looking after their children.

Apologies for the rant. Apologies to all whose I've just offended. Not my intention.

[Astr0naut]

Women have had to work while their children are small for centuries. And even if they didn't, in teh days before washing machines, supermarkets etc, how much qulaity time did they actually spend with their children?It's only a select few that were able to give up work when they had children, because their husbands earned enough to support them. Neither of my grandmothers were able to stop working - and they weren't exactly career women. One was a seamstress, the other worked in a factory. They relied on other family members to look after their children.

Personally, I prefer working to looking after under 5s all day. I love my kids, but god, it can be boring and frustrating. I think I'm a better parent for not spending all day with them - they get my full attention when I'm home. I don't even feel guilty anymore; if dh doesn't feel guilty for working, then why should I?

[SolidGoldBrass]

CSLewis: throughout human history, women who have been able to share the hard grind of infant care with others have done so. Wet nurses, nannies, grandmothers, elderly aunties, older siblings, servants have all been involved in looking after small children. This insistence that mothers must devote their lives to the care of small infants 24/7 is about keeping women subordinate and dependent.

However, this isn't to say that separated fathers should be able to have their DC whenever they like, just because they say so and consider they have 'rights'. Nearly always, when a mother is resisting eg overnight contact for a small baby, it is because the man has not shown himself capable of putting his own interests second to anyone else's so she is worried about the wellbeing of the infant in the father's care. A really good father would be able to put the child first and wait for a while, and build up contact slowly. One who spent his time, when he was still the mother's partner, abusing her and/or doing fuck all in the way of domestic work or childcare is likely to be asserting his 'rights' for reasons that are nothing to do with the welfare of the child. It will be either to punish the mother or to pose as Dad Of The Year in front of his new partner.

[Daddelion]

'Nearly always, when a mother is resisting eg overnight contact for a small baby, it is because the man has not shown himself capable of putting his own interests second to anyone else's so she is worried about the wellbeing of the infant in the father's care'

Is there any evidence for this or is it anecdotal?

[Emilythornesbff]

No, it's all made up by emittered women who want to control their ex partners.

[Daddelion]

Really?

I'd thought the truth would have been somewhere in the middle.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

5mad, baby's who co sleep with just dad and not mum have a higher SIDS risk than those co sleeping with the mum.something to do with the mothers difference in sleeping with tinys around.

I apsolutly can not remember where I saw that but I expect it will pop into my head at 4am when I'm trying to sleep

[5madthings]

Thankssock I wasn't sure so they shouldn't co-slerp with just dad or with dad and new girlfriend then!

[IneedAsockamnesty]

On most of the info I found about co sleeping they said keep the baby on the side of mum that is away from whom ever she is sharing a bed with,round about way of saying not in the middle.

Apparently most chaps tend to sleep differently to a mother of a tiny I'm guessing its heavier as opposed to the one ear open thing

[Wallison]

Erm, quite apart from the risk of SIDS (which I agree is an important consideration of course), surely it's just fucking supremely inappropriate for a husband's new girlfriend (or a mother's new boyfriend) to sleep in the same bed as their partner's baby? Ffs. I cannot believe that any parent of either gender would think this the right thing to do.

[5madthings]

wallison I totally agree but some have said its OK! I don't agree at all but if you don't agree morally/appropriateness etc then the SIDS risk is a bloody good reason not to do it!

[elizaregina]

5mads I agree they shouldnt sleep with a baby; but what is to stop them?


You can imagine even if they started with the best intentions not too - baby cries wont get settled etc....really really horrifically tired in the middle of the night beyond anything....just bring the baby in the bed.

Personally if I got together with a man with a NB which I dont think I would ever do, I wouldnt want to upset the mum and encroach on her NB baby in any way shape or form.

[5madthings]

Nothing is to stop them but maybe if they knew the increased SIDS risk that would make them stop and think? You would bloody hope so.

I can't see myself getting together with a man with a newborn as I would question where his priorities lay, I want a man who would put his child first and I wouldn't want yo encroach on the mum and her relationship with her newborn either!

[elizaregina]

If a woman was standing by a man trying to demand a new baby off its distraught mother that they cuckholded - I wouldnt trust them to do anything properly.

[Wallison]

eliza, if that situation (crying baby, impossible to settle etc) did arise, then the OW should get out of the bed and sleep on the sofa. No way should anybody share a bed with a child that isn't theirs.