Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial Day. I'm afraid we're heading that way again.

[garlicblocks]

"It is estimated that close to 250,000 disabled people were murdered under the Nazi regime. Persecution of people with disabilities began in 1933, but mass murder commenced in 1939.

"The organised killing of disabled children began in August 1939 ... All children under the age of three who were suffering from conditions such as Down?s syndrome, hydrocephaly, cerebral palsy or ?suspected idiocy?, were targeted. A panel of medical experts were required to give their approval for the ?euthanasia? of each child. In the first few months of the program this was usually achieved either by lethal injection or by starving the child to death. Many parents were unaware of the fate of their children, instead being told that they were being sent for improved care.

"The first experimental gassings took place at the killing centre in Brandenberg and thousands of disabled patients were killed in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms. Now that a fast and effective method of mass-murder had been developed it could of course be used to exterminate gays, Gypsies, political opponents and of course over six million Jews.

"Worryingly, in 2012 in Great Britain, Geoffrey Clark, a local government candidate for the UK Independence Party in a by-election in Gravesham, Kent posted this on his website:

"Consider compulsory abortion when the foetus is detected as having Downs, Spina Bifida or similar syndrome which, if it is born, will render the child a burden on the state as well as on the family."

"Although UKIP suspended Clark?s party membership when this hit the news, it was too late to cancel his candidacy. He came second to the conservatives with almost 27% of the vote."

What can we do about escalating persecution of the disabled and otherwise 'unproductive' people in the UK? Are we heading back towards forced sterilisation and murder?

Parsingfancy

I am no fan of our current Government but to say, as you appear to be doing, that they are advocating or implementing a form of genocide or eugenics is absurd and hysterical. Therefore I stand by my posts.

And as for having a really bad cold flu, if I'm fit enough to mumsnet, I'd be ok to do a little work, but frankly I can't be arsed

Oh, and Flatpack, I'm a history lecturer.

Flatpackhamster Mumsnet won't bin the thread though even though it is disgusting , as they love these kind of "arent the Tories eeeeevilll naazzis" threads.

Dawndonna. To be fair I think Mumsnet have supported several campaigns in support of people with disabilities, in particular children.

Yes, Just but they will frequently leave disablist comments, of which there are plenty here, and delete those that are reported, without, seemingly cause.

I don't think there's a single disablist comment in this thread. There are plenty however accusing other posters/ political parties as nazis,or wanting to exterminate disabled people which is possibly even more offensive.

Has anyone said there's anything disablist on this thread?

Bigoted on the other hand...

uk.news.yahoo.com/deaths-warning-mps-blast-atos-140127536.html

Justgiveme, I am in no way saying that the government is currently advocating a programme of genocide or eugenics.

I agree strongly with posters saying that the narrative being developed by the current and previous government and media is very similar to the early 30s.

That doesn't mean things must develop in the same way. And the best way to ensure they don't is to point out the red flags now, before we travel any further along that path.

As other people have been saying throughout this thread.

Dawndonna

You have a point. I complained I didn't like the language used on here some time ago.

Kate you do realise they'll shut their eyes, cover their ears and shout lalalaaa not listening?

mikesivier.wordpress.com/2013/01/18/mps-tell-their-own-atos-horror-stories/

Kate Penelopee is right.

Oh and that's very nice for you that you can choose to lie in bed when you don't have to. I've lost rather too much of my life not having a choice about it.

Some of that time I may even have Mumsnetted. But I'm not under the illusion that's the same as holding down a job or fulfilling work on demand for paying clients.

Parsing

Fair comment but as the partner of somebody with a severe disability, believe me, if I thought for one moment this situation was leading towards genocide or eugenics I would drag my flu-ridden arse out of my bed and take to the streets in protest. The situation as it stands is terrible and unfair and ill-thought out but not the same as the situation in the 30s, in my opinion.

atos makes errors in 1 in 5 cases

larry newman

Brian mcardle

cecilia burns

former atos nurse

Sorry, haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if this point has been made. Dismissing Hitler and Nazism/the holocaust as extremism that could never happen now rather undermines it, it externalises it and makes such occurences as things that 'cannot' happen now so we don't need to worry. The truth is, many Germans in 1933 thought that. It was all done slowly and drip fed into the rules. The Nazi party controlled the media a lot of their policies were hidden from great swathes of the populace (a lot easier than today with the multitude of media methods). For most people it could be ignored as it wasn't happening on their doorstep or to people that they knew. Homosexuals and the disabled were removed and so not seen. Ordinary people could convince themselves it was 'ok' and 'for the greater good' as for most people life in Nazi Germany was pretty good. Jobs were created, safety (unless you fitted into the targetted groups) was good and there was strength and pride in their nation. The positives, for the ordinary German would have outweighed the negatives that weren't happening to them anyway.

The final solution simply took it to the extreme. The negative press about the poor and disabled looks very similar to the start of the Nazi policies that ended with the final solution. It may not happen here - our democracy and systems are a bit too cumbersome for the sort of political coup required, however it did happen in the baltic in the 1990's and other political systems where there is a much more one party system (e.g. Russia) or where there is growing unemployment and growing support for the right wing (i.e. Greece) could - if the conditions were right - foster such a regime again.

We should fight such ideas wherever we see them to ensure the thin end of the wedge doesn't get any thicker....

The thing is, many disabled people could work, and should be encouraged to . .......Everyone should contribute, not be feather bedded with lavish benefits,when they are capable of working - even if they've not previously worked for many years. Time to stop soft soaping people.

Yet it has been pointed out that the medical professionals dealing with some disabled people - GPs, Consultants, say they are not able to work, but some Government clerk decides otherwise. So are you saying that these people are lying? Is that disablist or not?

Where are these jobs and employers rushing to offer work to the disabled?

Where are any jobs, for the disabled or otherwise?

Reading page 5 of this thread reminds me of a programme I saw many years ago called The Nazis: A Warning from History. I've just found it on .

@Dawndonna

I would like to know why Mumsnet deleted my comment. I didn't swear, I said I was terrified and disgusted. Yet again, Mumsnet not supporting those of us who fight for the disabled. I've never got involved in that particular discussion, but some bloody tory complained and you've obviously not read the whole thing properly.

Hello

We had to delete your post because it was an unambiguous personal attack on the poster concerned ('You are a rude and patronising moron, incapable of intelligent discussion... You both terrify and disgust me.')

That said, we appreciate that there have been some guideline-busting posts on the 'other' side of this debate and we've tried to get those too. Sorry if it's taken a while to get to these and/or respond to reports: it's been a bit of a busy day on the mail front.

Thanks for your explanatory post at 10:52, Just. I agree with (a) to (d) and (e) is a matter of interpretation.

"it's been a bit of a busy day on the mail front"

I read that as the Daily Mail front

I don't understand the view of "it's not as bad as the holocaust" when all that is being pointed out is that the events leading to the holocaust began in similar circumstances. This doesn't mean we believe the holocaust will happen again, what it means is we think even the smaller events/propaganda were wrong and are worried that those things are being repeated or are in danger of it.

Or are we only allowed to be concerned when lives of our disabled our eroded beyond belief. Why not point out and hopefully stop it in the early stages?

Hate to point this out flatpackhamster bit the conservatives didn't come to power . This is a coalition government. ....an appalling one but a coalition nonetheless.

Otherwise regarding the thread title I do agree its not in good taste at all.

MurderofGoths - never have I ever in the entire history of my mumsnetting ever agreed more with a poster.