Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial Day. I'm afraid we're heading that way again.

[garlicblocks]

"It is estimated that close to 250,000 disabled people were murdered under the Nazi regime. Persecution of people with disabilities began in 1933, but mass murder commenced in 1939.

"The organised killing of disabled children began in August 1939 ... All children under the age of three who were suffering from conditions such as Down?s syndrome, hydrocephaly, cerebral palsy or ?suspected idiocy?, were targeted. A panel of medical experts were required to give their approval for the ?euthanasia? of each child. In the first few months of the program this was usually achieved either by lethal injection or by starving the child to death. Many parents were unaware of the fate of their children, instead being told that they were being sent for improved care.

"The first experimental gassings took place at the killing centre in Brandenberg and thousands of disabled patients were killed in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms. Now that a fast and effective method of mass-murder had been developed it could of course be used to exterminate gays, Gypsies, political opponents and of course over six million Jews.

"Worryingly, in 2012 in Great Britain, Geoffrey Clark, a local government candidate for the UK Independence Party in a by-election in Gravesham, Kent posted this on his website:

"Consider compulsory abortion when the foetus is detected as having Downs, Spina Bifida or similar syndrome which, if it is born, will render the child a burden on the state as well as on the family."

"Although UKIP suspended Clark?s party membership when this hit the news, it was too late to cancel his candidacy. He came second to the conservatives with almost 27% of the vote."

What can we do about escalating persecution of the disabled and otherwise 'unproductive' people in the UK? Are we heading back towards forced sterilisation and murder?

Inverted commas or not, I still didn't like the inference.

I'm sorry i just don't believe that "people are dying in their thousands" due to benefit cuts. Many are doing an honest day's work for the first time in years and good for them. The wails of people on this subject are way too hysterical.

It would help the disabled if the Tories hadn't buggered about with Remploy.

Remploy, a wasteful organisation that helps few compared to it's vast costs and bloated management structure that allows directors to swan around in sports cars and collect huge salaries. Good riddance.

Well, plodder, I hope you never become unemployed and find you can't get work, or become disabled and can't get work or get the support you need.

In fact I hope you have made financial provision for just such an eventuality because by the way you are talking you would see no need for society to support you if either were to happen.

omg please tell me we have a troll
if not god help us

garlic

I thought my posts were pretty clear. Let me summarise:

(a) The benefits system isn't fit for purpose because it humiliates and discriminates against some deserving applicants;
(b) The system has been expolited in the past by a minority of people;
(c) A lot of people with disabilities are desperate to work;
(d) It is hard for people withj disabilities to get work because of prejudice in the workplace;
(e) I personally don't like some of the language used on here, in particular the use of the word unproductive, whether with or without inverted commas.

If you read my posts you will see all of the above contained therein. Hth.

On a personal note, I am not working a in bed with flu and cursing myself for being sucked in to this thread

Maybe you should also take some time to check out the concept that is Godwin's Law.

Oh, and please, just because I have 'argued' with you, assume that I agree with the sentiments of theplodder I don't.

Where were your left wing comments when Labour closed Remploy 29 factories in 2008? They made over 2000 unemployed. This whole mess is all down to Labour and their quadrupling of the public sector with their inflated salaries, early retirement and gross unfunded pensions. Anyway, it's an ill wind that blows nobody some good - thankfully the era of Victorian segregation of employment for disabled and able bodied is being brought to an end with the winding down of Remploy.

I worked for Remploy when I was a teen.
I am able bodied, so were a lot of the people who worked there.
it was very inclusive,

Maybe we should start by euthanising people who think it's acceptable to hijack Holocaust Memorial Day and attach it to their pet hobby horse.

Disgusting thread.

Theplodder to be frank what you beleive means nothing: if people are being struck off benefits or placed on workfare they simply cannot do then they can become homeless, suffer stress that exaccerbates mental health issues (case last week of someone being sectioned after being notified of this, MH condition deteriorated dramatically from stress)- IDS himself has acknowledged this as inevitable in the change, he descrines it as collaterel damage.

here here read Black Triangle, The Spartacus report (a good decent bit of research that one), Diary of A Benefit Scrounger.... and no doubt yuou will dismiss each one, but after a point that becomes a self evident act of delusion and not active use of available data.

As an employer who beelives in equality, should my husband cut the chances of the business surviving by employm#ing someone for whome we need to make active physical adjustments for, or give a lot of time off for appointments or indeed carer resposibility for? orally absolutely: but practically? Why can;t we instead hope our taxes will allow care for those who need it, and survival of the business and employment for whoever is best for the job- and in this climate there are so very many applying for every job and best for has to eman attendance doesn;t it? I know I am averaging 3 visits a week to hospital / other sppts with the boys ATM : what employer could sustain that?

Or indeed DS1- were he to be forced into workfare- they removed the clause that provided for his aggression, if he's still like that in 3 years would you be OK working alongside someone likely to attack you under stress?

Anotehr thing I am happy to pay taxes to reduce the chances of happening. We work towards self employment of course but who knows what life brings.

Remploy- seen the employment stats for the people being made redundant? I have, poor souls have no chance.There is going to be a better midway than full closure such as using the skills to manage people's access into work where possible but this is not ahppening: ATOS etc don;t want qualified people in the field of disability, they want target hitters.

FlatPack and why i did not post yesterday.

Well, what do you know - the financial mess we are in is due to to Remploy/Labour/Uncle Tom Cobbley and All.

I thought it was due to Lehman Brothers and others of the same persuasion. Oh and pointless wars, and large corporations dodging tax - (but that's different of course, because they need an incentive so that is not cheating, oh no). [cynical emoticon]

What I do know, is that it's not been caused by people with disabilities and I fail to see why they should bear the burden of the cuts.

Remploy was ONE company that specialised in helping disabled and non disabled people, it was not a policy of segregation.

There HAS to be specialist support at some level, having a variety of options frnakly emans that even if (and it was not) one level above a day centre then yes there wqould be a need for that.

Labour was absoluely teh root cause of all that was ill in the public sector and the absolute joke of a VAT Ofice with far too many people doing nothing all day that I worked in under the alst tory Government was a figment of my imagination. Right?

Godwin's Law is ridiculous when the initial concept fo any discussion suggests the Nazis: I saw a thread today about teh rise of the Nazis on anothert forum, a historical thread, dismissed using the same law, utter tosh.

Some people with disability can work; some prople can;t, or need adjustments to make work possible. We need a system to work that one out, but this system is not working and in a large part becuase the people brought in are motivated entirely by the £ and not the person. Indeed when combined with otehr cuts it is a joke- I have a friend with severe CP (can only use a hand) who has his own business but a#some of that id#s advocacy and mentoring for people with similar disabilities, and if people have less access to funds to hire him.....

Quite.

Also the same assessment em,asures are being sued for DLA / PIP shortly whcih are NOT unemployment benefits.

LaVolcan- yes, that.

Also- iof teh system is so bloody good why do so many cases succeed at appeal? Do we not think people suffer during teh appeal process?

Bonkers.

I agree with almost you've said Peachy but on the side issue of Godwin, it's important to note that Godwin invented it as a way of people thinking about the Holocaust when casually drawing comparisons with the Nazis in internet arguments. To be honest I think that mentioning it here, is right on the money.

Maybe we should start by euthanising people who think it's acceptable to hijack Holocaust Memorial Day and attach it to their pet hobby horse.

flatpackhamster. I am not sure who you are getting at here but IMO the best way to remember the Holocaust is to do our damndest to make sure it never happens again. Some of us are afraid that it could. Perhaps we are mistaken? I hope so, but I don't think we can afford to be complacent.

I'm not saying for one second that anything remotely resembling the Holocaust is happening now.

I do believe there are striking parallels with the political climate in the early 1930s in Germany, and unless we do learn the lessons from the past then it could very well happen again. Easily.

Look at the levels of anti disability propaganda already out there.

Closing your eyes/ears/ mind to the possibility of it happening makes it more likely, not less.

Um, Justgiveme, actually you need to check out Godwin's Law:

"The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies, if that was the explicit topic of conversation, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate..." So sayeth Wikipedia.

And while I agree with many of your points, you've missed out the major one that people with disabilities and chronic illnesses may not be able to do enough to viably work, because they are without certain abilities.

A point which you are illustrating very neatly by being in bed because you have flu.

People are dying.
Again I repeat it's not a holocaust situation now but it could happen.

Nobody is hijacking Holocaust day Flatpack back to your Daily Mail,love.

Plodder the figure for fraud with regard to DLA is 0.4%. That's government figures, not mine.
Disabled people have been fighting for years to make workplaces accessible.
Why should my dh clean lavatories? He can't walk, before his illness he was a fit and healthy philosophy lecturer, but according to you, he's scamming the system and fit for the gutter.
As for the bad language. Nobody resorts to it, people choose to use it, frequently intelligent articulate people.

Finally, I would like to know why Mumsnet deleted my comment. I didn't swear, I said I was terrified and disgusted. Yet again, Mumsnet not supporting those of us who fight for the disabled. I've never got involved in that particular discussion, but some bloody tory complained and you've obviously not read the whole thing properly.

Can't speak for others either but it's not a Tory hate issue.

I also hate Labour for ATOS.
I also hate the Lib Dems for selling out their principles for a bite at power.
I also hate the BNP for, well, being the BNP.
I also hate UKIP for their 'congregate communities'.