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AIBU?

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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial Day. I'm afraid we're heading that way again.

448 replies

garlicblocks · 28/01/2013 11:21

"It is estimated that close to 250,000 disabled people were murdered under the Nazi regime. Persecution of people with disabilities began in 1933, but mass murder commenced in 1939.

"The organised killing of disabled children began in August 1939 ... All children under the age of three who were suffering from conditions such as Down?s syndrome, hydrocephaly, cerebral palsy or ?suspected idiocy?, were targeted. A panel of medical experts were required to give their approval for the ?euthanasia? of each child. In the first few months of the program this was usually achieved either by lethal injection or by starving the child to death. Many parents were unaware of the fate of their children, instead being told that they were being sent for improved care.

"The first experimental gassings took place at the killing centre in Brandenberg and thousands of disabled patients were killed in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms. Now that a fast and effective method of mass-murder had been developed it could of course be used to exterminate gays, Gypsies, political opponents and of course over six million Jews.

"Worryingly, in 2012 in Great Britain, Geoffrey Clark, a local government candidate for the UK Independence Party in a by-election in Gravesham, Kent posted this on his website:

"Consider compulsory abortion when the foetus is detected as having Downs, Spina Bifida or similar syndrome which, if it is born, will render the child a burden on the state as well as on the family."

"Although UKIP suspended Clark?s party membership when this hit the news, it was too late to cancel his candidacy. He came second to the conservatives with almost 27% of the vote."

What can we do about escalating persecution of the disabled and otherwise 'unproductive' people in the UK? Are we heading back towards forced sterilisation and murder?

OP posts:
Kendodd · 30/01/2013 15:31

Yes, sorry, I meant people with a very low IQ learning disability. I have dyslexia myself, I personally don't consider it a 'disability' although happy to accept it may be labelled as such.

"black person should take a make-white pill"

Sorry I don't think this analogy works. Being black is not the same as being blind. Although I accept disabled people do suffer discrimination. I said earlier I don't understand why anyone would make the choice to be blind if the could see/ be in pain if they could be pain free/ etc. To me this is like saying it's preferable to be disabled and research into treatments might as well just stop.

Having said that, I don't believe anyone should be forced to take such a pill, it's up to them. I know if I had an accident/illness that left me unable to walk I'd be begging for it.

garlicblocks · 30/01/2013 15:35

The point is that you consider your evaluation of them to be more correct than their own, Ken.

OP posts:
garlicblocks · 30/01/2013 15:35

... but you did say you wouldn't force anyone to take it, so you're halfway there :)

OP posts:
Dawndonna · 30/01/2013 15:53

Ken you need to think about disabilities in a different way. There are many, many people with AS contributing to society in different ways. These people are often (not always) the people that make the leaps, eg. Bill Gates, Einstein et al. Despite depression, severe social difficulties, a tendency to interpret literally, a tendency to be a danger, most would not give up their AS for the world.

garlicblocks · 30/01/2013 16:12

When evaluating a disabled person's potentials and quality of life, fully-abled people - including medics -often make incorrect and hugely damaging assumptions. A very obvious example is with profoundly autistic people who, until very recently, were thought to be "vegetative" in that they seemingly had no awareness of the world around them and were uncontrollably angry much of the time.

We now know that they actually have too much awareness. All stimuli are coming in, unfiltered, which overwhelms and distresses the sufferer. The well-meaning paediatrician, cooing in the child's face, was not failing to establish contact but causing actual pain. There are programs in America which use electric shock treatment to force autistic kids to respond as if they were not being over-stimulated. I can't imagine the agony of that.

The disabled children of my schooldays - crippled, epileptic, palsied, etc, etc - were assessed by experts, who honestly believed they were doing the right and kind thing, as ineducable and of similar status to pets. Again, they robbed thousands of young people of their potentials and sentenced them to a fate which engineered the prognosis. Sedated and under-stimulated; uneducated; dependent; the children became passive and incapable :(

In my business life I was wedded to the rule "Assumption is the mother of all cock-ups." This is true in all areas and spectacularly damaging when applied to human lives.

OP posts:
MadHairDay · 31/01/2013 09:25

But Ken you're making assumptions about something you do not experience. You're assuming someone who is blind would 'jump at the chance' of such a pill. But being blind, particularly from birth, is a hell of a lot more complex and can become part of the identity of that person. You may think they would feel set free, but actually it could be that if this part of them is taken away they would feel bewildered, lost and unable to function in a world they do not know. It's just not as simple.

I would take the pill, because my disability is not integral to who I am, it's just fucked lungs, which cause constant pain and illness. Yes, I'd jump at the chance. But even I can see that if I did take such a pill I'd have to adapt to a me that was different, that people saw differently, that would be scary and difficult to get used to. Imagine that tenfold with someone with a disability that makes them who they are. My friend for instance, whose beautiful dd has Downs Syndrome - I don't think for a minute she would give her dd this pill. Her dd is who she is, with her disability. To want to 'cure' her, to give her such a magic pill, is making huge assumptions about the life she can lead, her happiness and probably most of all her possible contribution to society, because that is what it comes down to.

I don't believe people's worth is in what they do or how much they contribute. It is so much more than this.

sparklyjumper · 31/01/2013 09:39

Families don't need more benefits because they will spend it on drugs and booze More hateful DM and government propaganda.

Peachy · 31/01/2013 09:41

pain British pain Society on ATOS

Peachy · 31/01/2013 09:45

Nice sparkly

if benefits don't work how come we, and other people I know, turned ours into a self employed business after redundancy? This year we have msde enough for first time to hit tax credit targets: we should next year as well when they go up.

Without benefits we'd be on the well known S E Wales scrapheap.

And would I take a pill for my AS? nope, not now, at 40 it's too integral to who I am and anyway i'd need a time capsule as well to remedy 39.5 years of atypical development surely? Not that I am unable to work through the AS, I always did. of my 2 more able to hold an opinion ASD boys, 1 would like a shot and the other would not.

Would I make the other one? Hmm. if it solved the phobias that are destroying him probably, but otherwise no.

Peachy · 31/01/2013 09:47

(Oh and as for SPLD- Kendodd has a right to their own opinions but my DH doesn't seem to unhappy after 15 years with me. And he most certainly is NOT the boss. Neither is my IQ low- getting top grades on the MA I am studying anyway ).

Kendodd · 31/01/2013 12:52

"And he most certainly is NOT the boss. Neither is my IQ low"

Yes but you have said you don't have a low IQ and I think this is significant. IMO people need to be the intellectual match of their partners for a marriage to work well. This is why I said that I'd be happy for my DCs to marry somebody with a physical disability or mental health problem but not so a learning disability (very low IQ). I just don't see how there could be equality in this relationship.

Were as (for example) marry somebody in a wheelchair maybe (maybe not) they will have to do more of the house work, but so what. At the end of the day, I'd have no say in it anyway so what does it matter who I think DCs should and shouldn't marry.

"but actually it could be that if this part of them is taken away they would feel bewildered, lost and unable to function in a world they do not know. It's just not as simple."

Yes, I acknowledged that. I did say that (particularly) if you had a disability from birth I could see that it could be a scary new world you'd have to enter into.

I do think a lot of people on this thread arguing that society is treating disabled people the way they were treated in pre war Germany are being very selective in what they see. We have just hosted the best Paralympic Games ever, the first to sell out, I went, it was brilliant. We have recently introduced laws against disability discrimination. All new buildings have to be accessible to the disabled. I know we don't live in a perfect world but I don't remember Hitler doing any of these things. Maybe somebody will come on to say he did though as my knowledge of WW2 history isn't expert.

IMO disabled people should work, I said very early on that I think some of them can do great things and most of them can do ordinary things. Just signing them off as unfit for work onto a lifetime of benefits is worse than taking them away and saying 'no, you can do something'. Just retiring people to me looks like 'out of sight, out of mind' where as coming face to face with people with all sort of disabilities in all sorts of situations every day is much better. I know this might be a utopian world I'm describing but at least now the focus seems to be on what you can do rather than what you can't.

BTW I know that the government is not doing this to push disabled people into achieving all they can with a view to making the best life possible for themselves, I know it's just a money saving exercise.

ParsingFancy · 31/01/2013 13:00

Oh FFS.

The test for incapacity benefit (ESA) was changed again this week.

Looks like it will be easier for people with cancer, harder for people with complex health problems (mix of mental and physical problems).

I don't have the strength to read up on this yet...

MurderOfGoths · 31/01/2013 13:35

"We have just hosted the best Paralympic Games ever, the first to sell out"

Which is fantastic, except it added fuel to the fire of, "well if these disabled people can be world class athletes, why can't these others work at all?"

"We have recently introduced laws against disability discrimination. All new buildings have to be accessible to the disabled"

All the disability laws have done is said they potential employers can't ask if you are disabled, and can't sack you solely for being disabled. What it doesn't do is force them to make allowances for disability. Accessibility tends to be defined by companies as finding alternatives to stairs. Which is great, but wheelchair users are only a fraction of the disabled people out there.

"the focus seems to be on what you can do rather than what you can't"

From my (and many others) perspective it's more a case of what someone else thinks you can or should be able to do. Rather than what you actually can do.

garlicblocks · 31/01/2013 13:42

You know what, Ken, the fuckers could be spending all this money on proper support for disabled people to find ways to work. I've been asking for specific types of support for years - nada. Instead I get put through humiliating charades, which only exist to create a paper trail for the government's determination to tell me I'm not disabled.

You can only be disabled or not disabled; no transitional stages are admitted - this puts people off doing their physio or OT! When you're "not disabled" the government cuts your income by approx £20/wk and is entitled to demand that you put in a full week's work of their choosing.

The Work Programme, through which companies are paid between £4k and £14k for every claimant referred to them, is another funds-eating charade. The 'support' to get working involves paper-pushing, applying for jobs that the claimant won't get and, ultimately, being sent to work full-time without pay. I've asked for the support I could use to gently re-start my own business. They just said "We don't do that."

What will happen to me, like so many others, is that I'll eventually be sent on workfare placement. The first day will exhaust me. If I can get up the next day, I'll have severely impaired mental & physical function and will collapse. I'll need several weeks' complete rest to recover. As I will have failed in my duty, my benefits will be stopped (again), including HB, as punishment and I'll lose my home. Alternatively, the jobcentre will designate me unfit to work, as I clearly am, and tell me to re-apply for ESA. I won't get it because the DWP and Atos say I am fit to work. You would think these two sets of criteria would be linked - but they aren't. I would fall through the gap.

In October UC will be introduced. Should I manage to raise extra funds from somewhere, I might start trying to get my business going again as I can do it part time, in my own time. At the same time I will be hounded, by letter, text, email, phone and internet, to continually apply for full-time minimum wage jobs. I will be made to apply for full-time jobs and, if the DWP thinks it's found me one, made to do that instead of what I am doing.

This is costing billions. It's entirely predicated on the belief that all benefit claimants are workshy scroungers. The money is being spent on victimisation instead of supporting people back to work. The fact that they call their victimisation & harassment "support" doesn't make it so. The New Deal of the '00s, while flawed, did get people back to work by supporting them. It cost less than the welfare 'reforms' are costing. Why has this government not revisited that, instead of what it's doing?

As many of us have written, changes in local authority rules will mean no benefit recipient (working or not) can put down roots as they can be moved across the country at a few days' notice. Altogether, these developments are going to create a large class of displaced people who can be used as labour by any company that has a contract with the government or is in a contract chain with one that has. Clearly, kids going in and out of school, people missing medical appointments and sick people falling out of the system is going to piss everyone else off. I think this is the point where it will seem logical to create fixed institutions where the poor and the disabled can be more easily housed, monitored and put to work.

It is costing billions.

Why would a government spend all this money on chasing, disempowering and disenfranchising its most vulnerable citizens instead of trying to help them? It can only be ideological. Why would it go out of its way to feed misleading headlines to the media, if not to get the people on side with its mean-spirited ideology? These are similarities, like it or not (I don't!)

OP posts:
Kendodd · 31/01/2013 14:19

"You know what, Ken, the fuckers could be spending all this money on proper support for disabled people to find ways to work"

Agreed 100% (apart from the fuckers bit) for me this isn't about the money, it's about not writing disabled people off.

What is your business, were in the country are you, and how much do you need?

Kendodd · 31/01/2013 14:20

Sorry, pm me the last bit.

Darkesteyes · 31/01/2013 15:17

Which is fantastic, except it added fuel to the fire of, "well if these disabled people can be world class athletes, why can't these others work at all

Yet i can imagine most able bodied people being pretty pissed off if they were being fed propaganda asking them why they cant run like Usain Bolt.

Darkesteyes · 31/01/2013 15:23

Agreed Garlic but some of the providers of New Deal were conning bastards. Coming up are 2 copies and posts of mine from the workfare thread that is currently running on the politics board.

Wed 30-Jan-13 14:03:30

How about proper paid apprentiships Clouds.
Its all very well to say that i havent answered your questions but when you use phrases like "languish on jsa" its obvious to me that you have already made up your mind.
Oh and i was on workfare under New Labour. And it led to a job alright. In a sex chatline office.
After doing 3 months on workfare at my local council they wanted me to do three months at a soup factory for my JSA. So i took the chatline job that i saw in the paper.
So the husbands of lots of middle class Tory voters who think like you were ringing me for naughty chat.
Im soooo sure that they didnt mind their husbands phoning me and the other girls though.
After all it was keeping us off JSA!!!!!!!

Darkesteyes · 31/01/2013 15:27

Another problem with New Deal.....

My chatline job involved working nights. During the day while i was sleeping at home (yes George Osborne somtimes curtains are closed during the day for a reason) those bastards from the workfare providers (Reed/Pelcombe) came to the office and made a nuisance of themselves trying to lose me the job. My boss saw through it and told them to fuck off.
Why? Because Reed and their ilk got paid for everyone they sent on workfare. They thought they had a long term mug in me. Which is why they didnt bother being too careful with my paperwork.
On the day i went to sighn off it took them TWO HOURS to complete the sign off. Conning bastards.

Peachy · 31/01/2013 15:59

Paralympic gaems were fab.

Allt hat has reached down to my boy's level though is a level of people asking why if they can do this or that, why can't YOU? Answer is obvious: same bloody reason most people can;t be elite athletes, talent.

Still no provision for ds4 to learn to swim locally though (I can;t teach him, he physically clings to me and screams- would have to be someone else).

Peachy · 31/01/2013 16:07

' At the same time I will be hounded, by letter, text, email, phone and internet, to continually apply for full-time minimum wage jobs.'

This is what Dh dreads (I am exempt as a Carer).

Dh is at university now and working part time; he has met WTC criteria this year (so many hours at minimum wage- 26 I think) and hopes to meet teh increased conditionality next year.

However if he is having to deal with benefits officers and the like as well I predict a relapse of the mental health condition that almost took him from me, made him top of the redundancy list in his old job and that he has actively been fighting against now for years. I will never forget him calling me after a pressurised shift at his job (one notorious for breakdowns) to say goodbye and he couldn't take it any more, and having to send Police after him- and it was no stunt, the car stalled as he tried to drive into a wall. Thank God.

He works hard, he is coping and fighting and doing his absolute best. Swapping roles is not the answer as he couldn't cope with 3 autistic boys all day every day alongside keeping well and his work (which he loves). And the jobs he could apply for?

We're in Newport, they are not there.

freetoanyhome · 31/01/2013 17:18

'IMO people need to be the intellectual match of their partners for a marriage to work well.'

Balls. My partner easily has an IQ double mine. We've been married 30 happy years.

Darkesteyes · 31/01/2013 17:40

"We have recently introduced laws against disability discrimination. All new buildings have to be accessible to the disabled"

Ha! Well no one seems to have informed Atos of this fact as some of their medical centres where claimants have to go for their farce of a medical do not have disabled access or parking.
And some of the buildings where claimants have been expected to go for medicals have stairs.

Darkesteyes · 31/01/2013 17:43

From the above link.

He was abandoned at the top of the stairs, after being told not to use the lift.

Speaking to the Independent, Mr Meeghan said that even though he can tackle stairs with help, "it was a highly stressful situation and I felt like it was far too risky.

"I was worried that flames might come up the stairs and that I might fall or something. It wasn?t a drill.