to think we should encourage our daughters to marry men who earn AT LEAST as much as them?

[StripeyBear]

Quarter of a century ago, starting university, I would have furiously disagreed with this. Women should make their own money, and marry who they like!

Now, looking back, I'm not so sure. Nearly all my female friends, however successful in their careers prior to children, have compromised work success to raise their children. (I do have one friend who has a house husband, but that is the exception rather than the rule). Consequently, the lifestyle of my friends has been largely dictated by how much their husbands earn. So the nurse who married the mechanic is run ragged with extra shifts, juggling small kids in a tiny house with a large mortgage, indifferent schools and holidays in Haven or not at all - whilst my midwife girlfriend who married a consultant, is living in a huge detached house, with kids at private schools and just does a few shifts to keep her registration and to keep out of the way of her cleaner.

So AIBU, should we tell our daughters to marry someone who can provide the material stuff, or in another quarter of a century, will the world have moved on again, and fathers will be equal parents, and none of this will matter a stuff?

If money buys choice, why should those high earning men ever consent to marry our daughters? Surely they'd be better off marrying some high earning woman so they can have the choice whether to have a wealthy life-style with a SAHM or a very wealthy life style with two high earner?

Money is choice, so the midwife should aspire to marry the consultant. But why should the consultant ever aspire to marry the midwife?

*thinkaboutitonboxingday" wrote:
My mum was raised to quit work when she had a family. She raised me to have options. I earn a lot. I see my role as a feminist in business as making sure idiots like the tutor up thread with their 20+ women are 'ticking timebombs' comment are shown to be idiots.
I have worked for 15 years and built a great career. Then I stopped work for 9 months to have a baby. Now I resume my career. What's the problem?

I'm not advocating that women shouldn't be as educated as possible and be aiming for high-flying careers - after all, it's good fun and gives you more options and who knows what will happen in your life - you might never have any children for what ever reason. I'm not trying to limit options, just trying to be pragmatic.

Your post reminded me of a conversation in a bar. I was writing my (feminist) PhD at the time, and sitting round the table with a number of academic feminists, most with international reputations. We were all trying to think of a female feminist academic in our field who had maintained her career after having children - we couldn't think of one. That was nearly 20 years ago, maybe things have moved on - but I think we concluded that it was hard - academia was/probably still is a demanding mistress - and was harder to please when you're trying to juggle her with motherhood.

I'm glad you've got a job you enjoy and see no problem with taking 9 months off and going back to work - I suppose be able to afford to take 9 months off might be a problem if you're the main earner - but I suppose some people would be able to budget for this.

For me, the issue would be leaving my baby - the job I was doing prior to kids was relatively long hours - I would often be on the blackberry at 7am on the way to work and not leaving the office till 6 or 6.30pm. There would be some evenings - and the odd weekend working. I used to socialise with my colleagues as well - it wasn't essential to my job, but sort of expected :( Then there would be the travel - for a day trip to London, for example, I would be leaving the house not much past 5am, and not getting home till 9pm-ish.

I ended up compromising and working part-time, and making it clear that really long days were out - which meant I got landed with the least interesting work of my career, and my promotion prospects dropped to around zero. I suppose if I had a SAHD, other than bf-ing he perhaps could have taken my place as a principal carer - but I like being my babies, so I wouldn't have liked that.

cory, the way I see it is, a consultant might marry the midwife, if she is pretty, and he is not.
That is how it sometimes works, from what I have seen.

I earn a decent amount, which means that my husband can work, or not work, or set up his own business.

I'm glad my parents raised me to earn my own money. It means that my family have options. I think what your suggesting is stupid and dangerous.

What happens when they get divorced?

Realised I should have put "..from what I have seen of some higher earners".

So why should we give advice to our daughters regardless of how they may individually feel?

Why is it ok if a male consultant thinks it's enough to marry good looks, but not if a female one does?

And for the record, I can think of several female academics in my own smallish department alone who have young children and are maintaining their careers; also, several internationally well known female academics who have grown up children.

But Stripeybear, our role, or mine (self appointed) is to make it easier. I deliberately sought out a company run by brilliant women. They established flex in their business. We work bloody hard and are very good at what we do. But if we need/want to we can have the flex to do the school pick up. In return they get top talent (self assessed) very dedicated to the business. My team has only one guy in it and the business is growing despite recession.

We need to make this the norm, so our daughters can realise their options. Not bury them in dependence on their partner.

Amillionyears - I would say it's more, a consultant who wants DCs himself and doesn't want to make any career sacrifices, would be best to marry a bright woman who is able to go part time/give up her career so she can be main carer to mean he can have both career and DCs.

Plus let's remember, a lot of men have only reached the stage they have in their career because they married a woman who was prepared to support them non-financially, but time and emotionally, running the house and picking up the slack at home while they are working/studying. When DH did his last qualification I had a lot more bedtimes with DS on my own, did far more than my share of the housework etc, because I see his career being for our whole good. If I couldn't offer that to him, either because I didn't want to or was working myself, then he wouldn't have been able to do it.

OP, was your friend's DH a consultant when they first got together or has she supported him emotionally and made time sacrifices over the years so he could get to that stage?

YANB totally U. I went to a good Uni, had my own career and home etc. It meant that money was never a factor in my romantic decisions - in fact a couple of boyfriends were quite well off but weren't the person I wanted to marry. But when I met my DH I knew quite quickly that he was 'the one'. And tbh it was a relief that he has a good career and is a hard worker because it means I have choices over maternity leave / career breaks etc. I have friends and colleagues who don't have those choices and had to go back to work within a few months because their salary was needed to cover the mortgage.

That said some of them have built enormous houses or drive luxury cars and that was part of the financial pressure they faced. On the other hand we live comfortably but modestly. So I guess it depends on what your expectations are.

Ultimately I want my DDs to marry someone who loves them, treats them with respect, is a fantastic father, a generous, kind and loving person. Above all else.

However, I have been 'well off' and I also experienced very hard financial times when db's business nearly went bankrupt. Actually we are still struggling now to some extent.

In my experience, even with an amazing and lovely dh, having no money puts a terrible strain on a marriage, a family and life in general. Life is much, much nicer when you don't have to worry about paying bills and food.
It's naive to think money shouldn't be one of many factors that come into play when considering all your life choices - including who you marry.

My extremely bright SIL had the nous to marry a man who would be good at looking after her children and enable her to do a PhD and start a research career.

The whole argument seems to be based on the idea that it is fine and to be expected that the man will not want to make any career sacrifices but that a woman must admit that she probably will. My SIL didn't want to. She still has two lovely sons who adore their mother. Good on her.

Dh's business

I think if you are going to have children it's sensible to choose a partner who is solvent and able to manage their finances. Having had a child with someone who is the opposite of that because I was 'madly in love' it was draining and stressful to have to try to support him financially and bring up a child on an average to low wage. Now as a lone parent I am reliant on tax credits and housing benefit to top up my salary and cost of child care as he is still quite frankly shit with money and self employed. I can see where you're coming from OP but its not going to be a popular point of view.

Think about it - that's great and I hope that there are more business' like yours in the future. It doesn't work like that all the time though and although some industries can change career breaks and flexible working just canno be accommodated in some industries. E g I'm a livestock farmer. My job has to change significantly when my baby arrives (hopefly this wk!) and for other employees in the business flexibility is pretty much a non option.

But MrsLion, is your experience a good argument for marrying a wealthy business man? Surely that kind of person is far more likely to go bankrupt than a postman or a nurse?

When I married dh I knew we would be poor, and to some extent we have been. But there have been no ups and downs, rather a steady climb into slighly more but still modest affluence. Which is no doubt a lot less stressful than going bankrupt.

I want my daughters to marry a good man. However, i am not going to lie, i would rather they marry someone who is financially stable or has the potential to do well. All this 'i want my dd to marry someone she loves' is all well and good, but not if that someone is a financial burden.

I do agree that I would not be happy for dd to marry somebody who was shit with money.

But I wouldn't be happy for ds to marry somebody who was shit with money either.

And being shit with money has nothing to do with your actual position or wealth: dh has been a low earner for most of his career but is excellent with money and saved up for half the mortgage during our 10 year long engagment (because the bank refused to lend more than half to somebody with such a low income)- now that's commitment and reliability!

cory, I was not making a judgement on it, just saying what happens.
"But why should the consultant ever aspire to marry the midwife".

But Mrs Lion, wouldn't you have been okay if you had got a good job with a decent income? Regardless of how your DH business was doing.

I suppose we could adjust the basic premise to say to say if your daughters are incapable of earning a decent living themselves, or saving enough to take the maternity, then they wanted then they should try to bag a rich husband - how does that sound?

This will be my first hidden thread, I find it deeming to women.

I think it's more important to marry someone with ambition and a good work ethic and I would encourage making choices that allow her to make choices when it comes time to have children of her own. In both her career and her life partner.

i haven't read the whole thread. But.... I earn & always will a huge amount more than DH. He currently works part time on days when DD is are nursery. He does the rest of the childcare, the house work, groceries etc etc & is better at it than I would be.

I still get plenty of quality time with DDI. Our set up works brilliantly for us. I will be encouraging DD to achieve to the best of her ability & to reach for the stars. In the process i hope she finds a DP who will make her as happy as i am.

"My FIL managed SAHD and equal parenting without waiting for the world to follow and he was born in 1909! "

That made me smile. He sounds fantastic.

What will you encourage your daughters to do if they are lesbians, then? Are you going to stick in these 'women need to be funded to stay at home when they become parents' attitudes?

I myself will be encouraging my daughters to find partners who genuinely respect their right to work (which is less common than many men allege) and who absolutely approach domestic labour as a shared enterprise