to think we should encourage our daughters to marry men who earn AT LEAST as much as them?

[StripeyBear]

Quarter of a century ago, starting university, I would have furiously disagreed with this. Women should make their own money, and marry who they like!

Now, looking back, I'm not so sure. Nearly all my female friends, however successful in their careers prior to children, have compromised work success to raise their children. (I do have one friend who has a house husband, but that is the exception rather than the rule). Consequently, the lifestyle of my friends has been largely dictated by how much their husbands earn. So the nurse who married the mechanic is run ragged with extra shifts, juggling small kids in a tiny house with a large mortgage, indifferent schools and holidays in Haven or not at all - whilst my midwife girlfriend who married a consultant, is living in a huge detached house, with kids at private schools and just does a few shifts to keep her registration and to keep out of the way of her cleaner.

So AIBU, should we tell our daughters to marry someone who can provide the material stuff, or in another quarter of a century, will the world have moved on again, and fathers will be equal parents, and none of this will matter a stuff?

[ethelb]

The problem is Stipey that is becomes self-fulfilling. Do you really want to go back to the dark ages where women who worked were 'taking a job away from a father' or men got paid more as they had to 'support a family'.

Lots of women earn less due to discrimation in their industry and therefor have to stay at home, I don't think it should be the other way around iyswim?

[thebody]

I tell my dds to marry the first time for money and the second time for love.

[StripeyBear]

I don't think that's the issue at all Ethel. In a capitalist market place, different individuals can command different rates for their salaries - it's about who you hook up with and their estimatable earning potential. It's not about gendered pay discrimination at all - the same would apply if you were a lesbian looking to raise children with another woman?

[janey68]

I think my dh would be highly offended at the notion that I am the 'principal' parent and he takes second fiddle.
Ok it's a biological fact that women actually give birth, but in terms of actual parenting and nurturing do people really believe, in 2013, that parents aren't equal?
I actually feel quite sorry for men whose partners feel this way, Because I think many many dads would relish the chance to be more hands on and involved rather than being pigeon holed into the 'provider' role.

[PigletJohn]

Stripey

if she had married a prosperous person, who then lost his job, or went bankrupt, or ran off with the milkman, or died, or got a severe disease, she would still (probably) be hard up.

Anyway, there aren't enough prosperous single men to go round, are there? Are we talking about the highest-paid 5%? Of which, the ones between say 25 and 85 45?

What does that leave? 2% of the population, of whom half are men? And how many are single?

[IWantAnotherBaby]

While this all sounds rather cynical to many, I think there is a lot in it. I earn 5 times what my DH earns. He has no ambition whatsoever, and has been perfectly happy in his job for years. It does have the advantage of being very flexible so he can work full time and still do some school runs etc. I work full time in a very demanding job and take additional work when I can. I wish I didn't have to work so hard, and I would love to have been able to spend longer at home with my children, but I simply do not have that option.

I always assumed in my youth that everyone was ambitious; it always amazed me that DH didn't want to do more, or to earn more. I was brought up (and educated expensively), to earn well, not to 'marry well', and I am fortunate that I do earn very well. But my life would be a good deal easier, less stressful, and more pleasant overall, if less rested on my earnings. Many of my school friends (well known public school) married wealthy men who were within our school social circle anyway. Most of my uni friends (med school) married other doctors. I married rather blindly, for love, and I wish I had appreciated younger how important money can be. Frankly I wish I had married a more ambitious and higher-earning man; my life would be worlds different!

[cantspel]

what a depressing thread.

Why dont you just encourage your daughters to be high class prostitutes. Good money and work the hours that suit them. Ok they might have to shag a creep or 2 but at least he will be a rich creep.

[cory]

But Stripey, you said yourself that her money problems are related to her health problems and her consequent inability to work full time.

And as I pointed out, there is no guarantee that it will not be the husband who develops health problems instead.

What I, and many others, object to is the assumption that a man will always be in a state to keep a woman, but a woman doesn't have to be able to keep a man, because she can always rely on the man to do that. Husbands fall ill, have accidents, die, just like wives do.

[janey68]

Iwantanotherbaby- but by your logic, if you had married a high earning ambitious man, you wouldn't be matching him in aspirations and earnings. You'd use it as your 'get out' card to take a step back, have less pressure yourself and work less.
In other words, you'd expect your dh to provide what you are currently resenting providing! Where's the logic? Unless of course you have some outdated notion that the husband should have to shoulder that burden?

[cory]

what janey said

[Daddelion]

I think mechanics are getting a hard time on this thread.

If women stop marrying mechanics would that mean men would stop being mechanics or they'd only be gay mechanics? Imagine the drama.

Obviously women can't be mechanics they're too busy rich husband hunting.

But if there's a shortage of mechanics, then their salaries will go up, supply and demand and all that.

So in conclusion. Does it really matter?

[Weissbier]

OP, even if it is true most women want to stay home with their kids, that isn't relevant because you have no way of knowing if your daughters will feel that way - I don't, so there's at least one counter example. Surely it would be more universally constructive to teach them about the realities of the choices open to them - working, not working - and encourage them to be clear-minded about their priorities and their implications? To make informed decisions and take responsibility for them? If you want to have a comfy life without working, if this is a top priority for you, maybe it's not so stupid to marry a rich guy. But if you want a high-flying career, it might be really cunning to marry someone who is happy to stay at home and look after the kids. Or maybe you would kind of rather stay home, but decide not to because of the risks involved to you if your husband decides to run off with his secretary twenty years down the line. Or maybe your daughter will want kids with a woman, who should be the higher earner then? This balance is for everyone to decide individually, and who knows, maybe every so often love has something to do with it all too. Moreover, I struggle to see how teaching children of either sex to rely on others is a positive thing to do. YABU.

[StripeyBear]

Cory >But Stripey, you said yourself that her money problems are related to her healh problems and her consequent inability to work full time.

I don't see it like that - I don't think it is unusual to have minor health problems in pregnancy... the problem for my friend is that as her wage is vital to the household she can't slow down! In her last pg, she was working long hours on top of being pregnant and bf-ing a young baby, and looking after a toddler. Her idea would be to be at home and concentrate totally on being a SAHM. I think it would be slightly easier if her pregnancies had been totally problem free - but most ladies have some issue or other.

[poshfrock]

When I married my first husband he was earning about £50k (double my then earnings) and had the potential to go far in his career ( earnings of £100k not unusual). But he suffered mental health problems, had a full blown nervous breakdown whilst I was on maternity leave and so I had to return to work full-time to support all 3 of us rather than the 3/4 days I had planned. I was also doing the majority of the household chores as his illness prevented him from contributing.
The marriage eventually failed and I then married again. DH no 2 was working in the construction industry for cash in hand jobs so his income was low and irregular. But I had an established career and supported us both and expected to continue to do so. Scroll forward 12 years and he now has a public sector role where his pay equals mine and his pension is worth 10 times what I have. He expects promotion in the next 12/18 months so will earn £5k+ more than me. Coupled with this his shift pattern is such that he can do the school run on average 3 days a week and cook most nights. Today he has made cakes with our DCs when they got in from school and he is ironing as I type.

You cannot base a decision to marry on earnings or earning potential. I married for love both times and life gave me very different results.

[janey68]

Really striped? most women have issues with pregnancy? I'd be interested to see the figures to back that assertion up.
I agree that some women have pregnancy related health issues, and a lot of women get more tired and have some nausea in the early stages- but really, pregnancy is a normal state of affairs and I think it would be a real retrograde step if we bring our daughters up to feel that they are delicate flowers who need to take to their beds during pregnancy. And I certainly don't intend to raise either my dd or my ds to assume that as adults he'll work and she won't!

[StripeyBear]

Janey I am definitely the principal parent. I was the pg one, gave birth and breastfeed. I'm the one who made career sacrifices to spend time parenting. I am the one who makes most of the everyday parenting decisions (like should they go to Jo Jingles or Wiggle and Giggle). I do most of the food prep - buy most of the clothes... am the one who is called for when they are sick.

And that is the common scenario - I only know one other family where the principal parent is male.

I think you are being a bit tough on Iwantanotherbaby The problem is, when you have a man who can't pull his weight financially, he usually won't be principal parent. He certianly won't be the pg one or doing night feeds - so women in these relationships are working extra hard to look after children and maintain income streams ... all the examples of couples I can think of where the woman earns most, you rarely find a househusband or a man on part-time hours - usually the man is working full-time and the heady compromise is that the woman drops to 4 days or does a compressed week, as it is generally women who are desperate to spend tiime with their small kids - just an observation.

[StripeyBear]

Janey I don't have any figures - I'm just going on my vast experience of talking to other pg friends and my own pgs. I'm not suggesting that women need to take to their beds - I'm suggesting that working a 13 hour shift on a surgical ward, where the average nurse walks about 5miles in a shift - is fairly stressful, when you are pregnant, and have spent the day running after a toddler and bf-ing a baby. tsk tsk...

[PigletJohn]

stripey

how do you feel about "a woman who can't pull her weight financially"

[cantspel]

stripeybear then it could be said that it was her choice to have 3 children close together that added to her problems not that fact she didn't marry a high flyer.

And i know plenty of men who are desperate to spend more time with their children but cant as they have to work and support a family.

[HannahsSister40]

I guarantee the same discussion will be happening on Mumsnet in 50 years time and I guarantee 90% of women will still feel a greater pull to stay home with the kids in the early years. In a future where men get pregnant, carry babies in their belly,give birth, breastfeed and have 12 months maternity leave,that might change.

[Oblomov]

What an odd thread.

I am practically the OP's woman. In some senses. Apart from the fact that I work p/t, my dh is not mechanic. Op seems to have no idea what her life is actually like.

BUT, also what about all those mn threads wehre people say they had poor career AND even today, I see mn threads with top lawyers saying that the carreer is not conducive to firms, the firm won't consider anything less than f/t now that the op has had children and OP may not have become a lawyer(or insert any other top career) if they had known.

[Oblomov]

They had poor career ADVICE, sorry.

[VinegarDrinker]

I am the higher earner in our relationship. We both work part time. We share childcare. We both have a great work/life balance. Our boy has a good balance of care from Mummy/Daddy/other family/nursery. Life is good. I in no way aspire to or want to be a SAHM. I love my time at home, and I love my time at work.

I would hope any children have careers they enjoy. I hope they choose partners that love and respect them, and (if they want kids) who believe that parenting is a joint venture.

By the way, I'm pregnant, with a toddler, I've worked 3 x 13 hour shifts in a busy, demanding healthcare job in the last 4 days ("just" the 8-5.30 today ). The majority of my friends and colleagues who have been pregnant have had no problem doing similar. There's no competition in pregnancy, and everyone is different, but I absolutely wouldn't have wanted to stop work just because of a normal, healthy, low-risk pregnancy.

[LadyInPink]

When i was growing up (in my family and family's social circle) it was expected that the boy children do well at school and get good careers but that it didn't matter about girls as we would just end up married with children . Consequently I was never encouraged to choose a career or go to uni but just to get by because I'd be snapped up by some man who wanted me to have his babies By 22 I was fed up in a dead end job and forged a new career and did well and eventually met a great guy who I did marry and have DC with (worked up until 8.5 mths) but once they were at full time school I felt I couldn't just keep house and so started a new career path and have never looked back.

I actually voiced this out loud to my DF who looked very sheepish and admitted that yes that was how we were brought up and that he was actually very proud that I had got a good career and earn good money and that he was sorry he hadn't encouraged me to do well young. My DM only recently realised I work (have done for 4 years now since DD turned 5) as she hadn't ever bothered to ask what I'm doing etc but assumed i just kept house.

To this end I want to encourage my DC to work hard, get a good career and be happy and hopefully they will walk in those kind of social circles and meet partners who are likeminded e.g that do have jobs and earn okay be that as a Dr or as a binman.