to think we should encourage our daughters to marry men who earn AT LEAST as much as them?

[StripeyBear]

Quarter of a century ago, starting university, I would have furiously disagreed with this. Women should make their own money, and marry who they like!

Now, looking back, I'm not so sure. Nearly all my female friends, however successful in their careers prior to children, have compromised work success to raise their children. (I do have one friend who has a house husband, but that is the exception rather than the rule). Consequently, the lifestyle of my friends has been largely dictated by how much their husbands earn. So the nurse who married the mechanic is run ragged with extra shifts, juggling small kids in a tiny house with a large mortgage, indifferent schools and holidays in Haven or not at all - whilst my midwife girlfriend who married a consultant, is living in a huge detached house, with kids at private schools and just does a few shifts to keep her registration and to keep out of the way of her cleaner.

So AIBU, should we tell our daughters to marry someone who can provide the material stuff, or in another quarter of a century, will the world have moved on again, and fathers will be equal parents, and none of this will matter a stuff?

A nice lifestyle is a clean, warm, comfortable home, decent food at regular times, enough money for appropriate clothing and interesting things to do.

Putting a tremulous hand up here but my neighbours, friends and I all have lovely life styles (for which I am very grateful!). Most of the women work part time or freelance and appear to have lovely husbands, who are into the kids, helping out and happily supporting the family. The one arse of a husband going through an epic MLC was always a selfish bastard, admits his wife. She's so annoyed with herself for confusing his walk over anyone attitude with ambition as she knows plenty of successful men now, who obviously had the capability to succeed without being wankers.

As we're early 40's there is plenty of scope for more of these seemingly lovely men to derail their families but, the one previously divorced one I know, was more than generous with his first wife. So much so, the second wife is good friends with her and the second marriage's children go and stay at the Ex W home occasionally.

We are not in nirvana and that's why, when i first discovered MN, I was truly shocked to the core of what can happen in relationships.

I very much hope that both my DD and my DS have careers that can potentially make them financially comfortable. I very much hope they both marry partners with the same potential.

This will allow flexibility in their relationships...a huge factor in happiness no?

I do not want either of my DC to be forced into a situation where they cannot be the main breadwinner if necessary, or forced into a situation where they have to be either. Both partners need to be able to take up the baton.

Bonsoir Mon 28-Jan-13 08:44:38
"A nice lifestyle is a clean, warm, comfortable home, decent food at regular times, enough money for appropriate clothing and interesting things to do. "

But surely we can agree that appropriate clothing and interesting things to do not mean the same for every person?

I am sure if you had to wear what seems quite appropriate clothing for me, you wouldn't want to leave the house at all. What I think of as interesting things to do is different from what somebody else thinks. Dh is one of those people whose emotional needs can be filled on a very limited income, because so many of the things that make him deeply satisfied don't happen to cost a lot.

I have known very happy people who were very well off and very happy people who were not well off: it all seems to depend on whether you have a reasonable level for your own levels of comfort. (and of course on other factors, such as the happiness of relationships etc)

Some people can even enjoy the challenge of making ends meet- which is not the same as hopeless poverty, that I doubt anybody enjoys.

For my mother, scraping and saving for a holiday abroad was part of the fun; she was a good housekeeper and enjoyed exercising those skills. She wouldn't have been happier with the kind of lifestyle where holidays came without an effort.

But there are plenty of people who would just have found it frustrating.

I have no idea what kind of person dd is going to turn into. So I wouldn't even give her advice- not even on the choice of nationalitites to maximise reproductive beauty.

Cory of course there are always exceptions, and I suppose there must be some men who would prefer to be SAHDs, though they are unusual.

OK - one more time with feeling..... Perhaps I need to rephrase my argument. My starting point is this: born in the 70s, as a student of feminist thought, my "conventional wisdom" was that women needed to be educated and career focused, and earn sufficient money to provide for themselves and their children. I would have said - you can't reply on marrying some rich git - suppose he leaves you, beats you, has affairs with the gardener etc etc.

Now, looking about me at how things have worked out for my friends and I (now we are all getting on), I would say - the world of work is not the easiest place for someone who wants to combine parenting and work, and that as mothers overwhelmingly are the parents that limit their careers, we tended to be a bit screwed. So, if you want a comfortable lifestyle (and money does buy comfort and choice), it is well to enter parenting with a partner who earns as much as you.

I thought the interesting point that came out of the discussion was around the balance of childcare responsibilities.
I think it is indisputable that mothers currently take the lead parent role - I know fathers can do it, but it is not the current norm. You rarely meet a f/t mum with a p/t DH for example. I might be swayed on how much of this is cultural and how much is biological - I do think there is something very deeply biological about bonding with mothers - the natural weaning age worldwide is something like 4 years old - which sorts of suggest that mothers are meant to have a big role in raising small children. However who knows how much scope there is for creating new cultural norms... anyway... interesting discussion - thanks

You are right Stripey. Women on here argue all the time that there should be total equality between Mothers and Fathers, but overwhelmingly, whether she's got a Phd of handful of GCSE's it's the Mother who wants to spend more time at home with the children in those early years. If a man could get pregnant, carry baby in his belly, give birth, breastfed And take a years maternity leave, that might be different.
Of course, the vocal minority who do work full time and love it will say the opposite ad Infinitum on Mumsnet

stripey I think it is an interesting debate, and certainly one that I think about a lot.

When DD asks me about these things (she's 13) I tell her she should aim to forge her own career, but when the time comes to choose a partner, she should try to ensure that he is in a position to take on financial responsibility should that become necessary and/or desirable. Shpuld she want to or need to be able to take a career break, she will need a partner who can facilitate that.

To be fair, I tell my DS the same though! I would hate it if he had no choice in life.

Shite typing sorry, I'm on my phone with crappy predictive text etc

Job-sharing always has its pitfalls, and being the family lynchpin (which is what SAHMs have always tended to be) is no exception.

I agree to a certain extent and wished I'd thought about it a bit more.
I want to give my son a better more financial secure start then I Grew up in. But unfortunately that's not how it's ended up.
I'm truly truly blissfully happy but the uncertain future really is a constant worry. Then I look at other people (first mistake!) who have married 'well' who don't have that concern.
But I don't for one second think they are happier then me.

I first off want my daughter to marry someone who loves her, looks after her, loves their kids and treats her good. Secondly , Im hoping and working towards raising my daughter that education matters , and that obviously getting a good career is a good thing, so if she chooses someone in that line thats great, but if she chooses someone who has a low paid job , its her choice as long as he treats her like i said above I dont mind at all, it could be that she ends up with a low paid job! and Id hope it would work vice versa.

I think giving your children 'conditions' on who to marry full stop is ridiculous tbh and I can never get my head around how people think like that.
I want my ds's to be happy. Should they be happiest being a surgeon or a bin man, that's fine by me. I would hope that they'll both have the sense to avoid any girl that's been coached in the art of husband hunting by her mother.

there was a recent study which showed that a tiny tiny minority of women want to work full time. So when we talk about so called 'choices' we should remember that many women don't choose to work full time when they have babies. They have no other choice. I married my husband young before he was a high earner. But looking at my life now and how it was 15 years ago, I'd much rather a high earning partner. It's a no brainer. Having money vs having little money? I hope my daughters marry for love first, obviously. (But will be secretly hoping they marry a well educated, well paid man too, because I expect them to be well educated and well paid and hopefully to have the choice to be sahm's if they want)

" Bonsoir

A nice lifestyle is a clean, warm, comfortable home, decent food at regular times, enough money for appropriate clothing and interesting things to do."
So surely the surest way for women to have this is to be in a position to provide it themselves

Actually, no! The statistics are very clear - it is very hard indeed for women to provide all that for themselves.

No if you make money a pre determining factor the marriage will always be meaningless.

I would always encourage my daughters to have their financial independence - for their own self esteem and for their ability to provide for themselves in the future.

In terms of what their future partners may earn, I would encourage them to marry someone kind, loving, responsible and generous. The idea that they must have a certain amount of money would not cross my mind.

However I would expect that my daughters will be university educated (both DH and I are to masters level) and I would guess that they will meet someone with a similar qualifications and potential earning power because that tends to be how life goes - you are attracted to people similar to you and you meet people who move in the same circles.

Whether they choose to take their foot off the pedal (as I did) when they have children will be up to them.

Why does she have to marry at all? did i miss something...

I would always want my DD to earn her own way. Besides people's financial circumstances change. When I married my DH I earned twice as much as him. Now eight years later, he earns more than three times my salary.

Presumably anyone can get made redundant, lose their business, become ill and earning can disappear, not to mention divorce. Even more important for woman to have financial independence

tintin getting married isn't unusual at all, in fact amongst my very well educated girlfriends, there is only one who isn't and she wants to be, so I'm not sure what you think you've missed.

In fact there's two, but one is co-habiting with a child and is banging her head that she didn't marry him as her rights are so limited should she break up with the father. She works full time.

"So the nurse who married the mechanic is run ragged with extra shifts, juggling small kids in a tiny house with a large mortgage, indifferent schools and holidays in Haven or not at all -"

Are the salary of a nurse and the salary of a mechanic not similar?

I'd say the nurse, if full time, would out earn the mechanic. Nurses at a senior level earn in excess of 40k per year. A mechanic wouldn't earn that unless self employed I doubt

The Jeremy Vine show is discussing this very subject today

How very strange