To wonder why so many women are in denial about misogyny?

[seeker]

What do they get out of insisting that men are subject to exactly the same level of discrimination and abuse as women? That Mary Beard, for example, would have been treated in the same way if she had been a man?

I just don't get it.

I wouldn't deny misogyny, but I don't go round expecting it either. I tend to expect the best of people until I am proved wrong. I like people. But sure, there is plenty out there. And a fair degree of man hating too, but with usually less obvious/profound effects.

I'm idly wondering if delboy is not so much unreconstructed as constructed.

I'm married to the nicest person I've ever met. He's not remotely sexist - he isn't any ist at all, actually, he takes people as he finds them. That doesn't mean sexism isn't rampant or that women are very unequal in our society, why should it?

Women are under-represented at every level - politics, civil service, major corporations. They're over represented in areas that attract relatively low pay and status - childcare. nursing, cleaning, teaching. Women are paid less for work of the same value, and I could link to a dozen studies and court cases that illustrate that. Women are victims of domestic and sexual violence massively more often than men. Women are subject to nasty, vindictive spite on grounds of gender in a way men just aren't. Men are attacked on all kinds of grounds, absolutely, but not their gender itself. And the worst insult levelled at another man is that he is in some way feminine - whereas the worst insult leveled at a woman is that she is ugly, sexually a turnoff, and deserves to be raped.

That isn't a theory. It's, you know - factual. How is saying as much unacceptable special pleading? I'm white, but I pointed out when I thought people in another thread were being racist, too - another form of prejudice that should be undeniable to anyone with an ounce of grey matter. I don't like homophobia, either. I don't like it when anyone or any group is treated as less than human for an inherent trait that in no way affects their worth as a person. And that's all sexism is.

I genuinely don't understand why or how anyone can find that strange or controversial.

For the record, I think the family courts are disturbingly unfair to fathers whose exes want to block them from the kids' lives, and it isn't taken seriously enough as the abuse it is of the kids as well as the father. I think that is a genuine, thankfully statistically rare, case of sexism against fathers, and it's troubling. I've said so on many threads here over the years. It's just that sexism against men, in the scary, life-altering sense, is usually rare and generally quite trivial. Men have more power in our society - in every society, in fact. Attitudes towards men and women's sexuality is completely different. And I am baffled by the double-think and mental gymnastics required when people try to deny it. It's not like there's no evidence, is there?

I guess most women, like men are ambivalent about it. Throughout history, most men didn't go around purposefully oppressing women, (though a sizeable minority did, as now) they just didn't challenge the status quo, as most women didn't.

I don't want men to hate their own gender, just to realise what other people go through as as result of a sizeable minority of shitclowns (of both genders) and also to value women as individuals not just "Women are like x, y and z so I will treat you accordingly".

I dont know why I read these threads, some people are so obtuse it's ridiculous.

Anonymumous, why did your husband have no choice but to go out to work? You chose to stay at home, so therfore he chose to go to work yes? It's accepted/expected that men will work and women will stay at home, but there is a choice. What a bizarre combination of opinions. On the one hand it's all a level playing field, but on the other hand your husband HAD to go to work while you stay home

Anon - links please

Also not to have double standards with male/female behaviour. "Slut shaming" makes me fucking livid.

well it might have been women if we had been given the chance to advance in engineering not constantly held back because they are women and sadly they still are this is why we are fighting and will continue to do so and so that other women can live a more independent life if they prefer to do so

Anonymous, where do I start? Read "A Room of One's Own" by Virginia Woolf. Will give you an idea of why it's largely men who invented/created things.

Can I also say, just while I'm a bit confused anyway, that everytime there's a discussion about women being raped/threatend with rape, there is always someone saying 'but men are raped too'. And I dont understand why it doesnt occur to these people that men are raped by other men, not women.

Sorry for tangent. I made the mistake of reading comments on the Gaurdian yesterday.

Well there has only been 40,000 years of oppression, Anonymumous.

It might take more than 40 years of feminism to sort it out.

Namchan- I don't want to derail even further, but apparently men are frequently raped by women as well.

Anonmyous, a woman, Josephine Cochraine, invented the dishwasher. It might also interest you to know that the work that made computing possible was done by a woman, Ada Lovelace.

Just because you don't know about them does not mean that they did not exist.

Inventions by women since 1900. Google is your friend.

A woman invented the windscreen wiper. Oh, and the machine that makes flat bottomed paper bags!

So do you feel your views aren't welcomed by feminists, Delboy? At what point did you feel certain about that - when they said they wanted to shut you up by ramming their vaginas in your face? When they said you were too ugly to be raped up the arse? When they said you must be a queer?

Actually I haven't noticed women inventing many things since the dawn of feminism either...

Absolutely, as has been repeatedly explained, women are still massively under-represented in almost all desirable/senior roles in society, and they are still disproportionately doing menial, unsung work. There is a huge gender gap in sciences, partly down to expectations (good single sex girls schools don't have the issue). That's why feminism is still needed, because there isn't equality yet. That's the whole point. On the one hand, you say feminism isn't necessary, and on the other you acknowledge that equality is nowhere near a reality. Can you not see how contradictory a position that is?

As an aside, Xrays and the structure of DNA are generally regarded as pretty useful. Maybe you could google Marie Curie and Rosalind Franklin. The latter's experiences are especially instructive, in this context. Crick disliked her because she didn't wear lipstick. Even though her crystallography was what led to the discovery of the structure of DNA.

Does it only count if it's hard science inventions? Is Kevlar good enough for you? You know, the stuff in bullet proof vests? Or are inventions only worth lauding if the person with their name on the patent also has a penis?

Woo-hoo! A woman invented the dishwasher. Well, that's all right then. Men can go to Hell - who needs 'em?!

Feminism is not about hating men. It's about respecting human beings.

Anon - read all the comments and even though its the mail I did not see a single comment about sticking a vulva in his face? One America poster did mention putting tape over his mouth, but the posting name is a bit ambiguous. No other comment was on sexual violence. There was a lot on appearance that was negative but then he was advertising his own brand of underwear and therefore modelling rather than giving his opinion on question time. Presumably you can now dig out a thread on William Hague?

Seeker- I can think of loads, its just getting the time to write them in a coherent and hopefully non too confrontational way. As I said its off to work for me in the next couple of mins so cant get them down at the mo. If its a genuine offer to discuss these questions then great. I will create a thread in feminism later, although this would probably be like signing my own death warrant!