To ask what exactly defines 'controlled crying' and what the alternative actually is?

[goldiehorn]

I always assumed 'controlled crying' was when you leave the baby to cry for a few minutes, then go in and see them, then go out again and leave them for a little while again and then go in again and so on.

Whenever I see controlled crying threads, there is always someone who comes on and says its cruel and they would never do it. Does this means that people really go into their child as soon as they start crying and soothe them?

Also, people often say, 'dont do controlled crying, do the baby whisperer/no cry sleep solution.' From talking to people I have picked up that these are when you go in and shhhhh/pat etc. But dont you still have to leave them to cry for a little bit before you go in and soothe them?

It seems to me that surely you either you go straight to them at the first cry, or you are doing some form of controlled crying. What are the middle solutions?

(Just interested as with DS, we have always let him cry for a few minutes to see if he will self settle, and then gone in to him. We have not had to do any sleep training as such as he is a very good sleeper, but have been talking to friends about the whole sleep thing, and am basically just curious).

*An out of control toddler grows into an out of control teen.

Simple fact.*

Er no, simple bollocks.

Again, I think that study is talking about CIO not controlled crying

It does not say by what amount the cortisol level was raised

Nor does it look long term. Only to day 3

There was no control group

There was a sample size of 25

Bit shit really isn't it?

Also, something to note about cortisol production is that it is very closely linked with circadian rythms.

In a normal person, secretion peaks at around 8am and is lower in the night / early morning.

So if the circadian rythms of the babies in studies are altering (which they are if they end up sleeping through) you would naturally expect to see a change in the levels of cortisol and the times when that peaked and fell

So if prior to the CIO, the infants saliva was tested at say 8am, and then after the CIO, when the circadian pattern had altered the study would be flawed as it would not be possible to ascertain if the rise in cortisol obsereved was a direct result of the CIO itself or a result of a shifting circadian pattern.

If that makes sense

catgirl, I've never heard that about BF and cortisol - where did you read it as interested.

I think people create rods for their own backs by teaching their children how to get attention over things like sleep and food, rather than how to adapt to being part of a well functioning family.

I admit to being smug though because at least so far I have two great sleepers and eaters.

I would like to read the whole paper but the abstract is very inconclusive and doesn't present particularly convincing evidence tbo.

I've read quite a lot of open minded, practical and realistic posts on this thread. Polkodot I liked a lot of your posts. Am also impressed by 3 under 18 months!

Here is one study (does have it's flaws too) but there have been quite a few more with replicated results
I'll find some more and do linkys

Thank you. Will read!

3 children under 18 months?

My cortisol levels have gone sky high just thinking about that!

Sensible management for the whole family ? Nothing distressed my older children or toddlers like the sound of their baby sibling crying and if they thought I wouldn't help the baby they'd have been bloody horrified, it's instinctive within every mammal to react to the sound of young crying. If you don't understand well no point in any further discussion.

Am not against CC but it didn't actually work for dd1 who was an awful sleeper. What did work and has also worked for dd2 is 'gradual withdrawal'. It's a much kinder and more stress free strategy to employ and would recommend trying it before CC personally.

Its like the one they did a few years ago looking into cortisol levels of young children who cried every day for the first week they were left at nursery.

Except when they talked about it on this morning everyone was up in arms about what a load of crap it was and how they were trying to make working mothers feel bad.

'Does this means that people really go into their child as soon as they start crying and soothe them?'

Erm, yes...

Polkadot do you or anyone else have links to studies about lack of sleep and education? Surely this is at an older age (ie school age) than most children on whom parents carry out CC?

I actually came on to post the same link about self soothing which floweryhat shared, a blog which made perfect sense to me since my 10mo can 'self soothe' but often chooses not to. And his night wakings have not reduced much since he began to put himself to sleep rather than being rocked/fed in the evening.

The way I see it, he can get himself to sleep so when he does have trouble sleeping there must be a reason for it and, as his mum, I'm there to help. I dont think CC is harmful if carried out within the context of a generally responsive and loving home, but personally wouldn't do it (though reserve right to change mind if DS still isn't sleeping through at 2!).

Thanks for starting thread OP, I've often wondered what people mean by CC as I think many people use it to mean different things. For those who did CC, when you first put baby down, do you leave the room if baby is crying or try to settle them first then leave and commence CC if/when they realise you've gone?

I never let DS1 cry and was always picking him up and feeding him at the slightest murmer. In a way I did create a rod for my own back, I had to feed him to sleep and he didnt sleep through until I stopped breastfeeding at 13 months. However, he is now 2.5 and goes to sleep in his own bed in his own room 7-7. If he wakes (very rare) he shouts for me and I give him a cuddle and he goes back to sleep. Okay, the first 13 months were probably hard, but I don't remember now and in a way I miss the closeness we had when I would go in and comfort him.

DS2 has had to cry sometimes as I will be busy with DS1 and he sleeps 7-7 with one feed.

So, I don't know what this proves really, asides from the fact that you don't have to sleep train if you don't want too?

I don't think anyone creates a rod for their back. It's so nonsense.

All babies have needs and requirements, it seems like you either have a lot of stress and hard work making them behave in a helpful way in the early months, with routines etc or you have a longer term but less intensive time of it by letting them do things at their own pace.

I have to say I had a very accommodating child in ds2, who cried about twice in his first 6 months, but then, I went to him at every murmur, co slept, and breastfed him till he started school at 4 and a half...he is a very very secure child, very easy, never had a tantrum etc. (so far)

It's all so totally random. I don't consider anything about him a 'rod for my back' - it's just called having a small child. No one gets one that never asks for anything.

Blossom no links but if you Google you'll see that babies need masses of quality sleep and lack of sleep has an impact on cognitive development and causes cranky and irritable babies/toddlers.Lack of sleep can cause depression in mothers too.It's even been linked to future alcohol and cigarette use.

Knowing how crap I am with crap sleep and how toxic and unhappy we all felt in a crap sleep environment I made 100% the right decision.

Bangham 3 nights is not a lot of stress and hard work.Night after night of upset and disturbed sleep is a lot of stress and hard work IMHO.It's horses for courses.

There are also other children to consider.A baby isn't the only important member of the family,other children count too.It's often not even possible to pick up babies immediately they whimper when you have other babies,toddlers or children.School children need a decent night sleep otherwise they can perform way lower than their ability.Being woken up night after night by a baby or toddler is just not fair.

I take some of your points.

However, even if it is ideal to have a sleeping baby you've still got to find a way to make them do it, and imo that's where you can find yourself in all sorts of difficulty.

You may have managed it in 3 nights - with no relapses - but most people are not so lucky.

You get to the baby before it wakes the older children don't you ?

Not if it's continual,the other children are light sleepers,you have paper thin walls,you sleep deep and are functioning below par because you're exhausted etc,etc.

"Sensible management for the whole family ? Nothing distressed my older children or toddlers like the sound of their baby sibling crying and if they thought I wouldn't help the baby they'd have been bloody horrified, it's instinctive within every mammal to react to the sound of young crying. If you don't understand well no point in any further discussion. "

I agree wholeheartedly with this ^^

I have 4 DCs, all under 8 years old. We try to tend to their needs as fast as possible. Under 6 months, or maybe longer, the baby is downstairs with us in the evening. One squak = boob/cuddle. No chance for older kids to be woken. Sometimes it doesn't work of course, especially when they're at that 3 months ish age. When they're bigger, we boob or cuddle them to sleep upstairs, then if they start to squeak on baby monitor one of us is straight up to pick them up. The older ones seem to have survived this pretty well and are secure happy children who don't have nightmares. They would be horrified if we left their littlest sibling crying. When they were little people would often comment on how our babies weren't heard crying much -they didn't have the chance! Their transitions from sleep to waking were often smooth, without that full throttle crying being reached v often. Of course occasionally 5 yr old tantrums, whilst 3 yr old poos themselves and it's hard to deal with everyone at once. It happens, everyone survives. However, out of preference we try to deal with baby's distress ASAP.

But Flowery mine never cried either-they were too busy sleeping that is the whole point. Older siblings don't hear babies being left to cry-how ridiculous.There is a whole lot of pontificating and ignorance on this subject by people who have never even tried sleep training/cc.

It doesn't come as a shock by the time there are older children in the house that a baby will indeed cry, you make arrangements and move people upstairs, downstairs, whatever it takes.
I fully expected and wasn't disappointed that there would be disturbed nights for me. As DH drove 300 miles a day I moved down stairs with the little one and then napped between 12 and two with him before the school run to pick the big ones up, this is no great hardship honestly.