To ask what exactly defines 'controlled crying' and what the alternative actually is?

[goldiehorn]

I always assumed 'controlled crying' was when you leave the baby to cry for a few minutes, then go in and see them, then go out again and leave them for a little while again and then go in again and so on.

Whenever I see controlled crying threads, there is always someone who comes on and says its cruel and they would never do it. Does this means that people really go into their child as soon as they start crying and soothe them?

Also, people often say, 'dont do controlled crying, do the baby whisperer/no cry sleep solution.' From talking to people I have picked up that these are when you go in and shhhhh/pat etc. But dont you still have to leave them to cry for a little bit before you go in and soothe them?

It seems to me that surely you either you go straight to them at the first cry, or you are doing some form of controlled crying. What are the middle solutions?

(Just interested as with DS, we have always let him cry for a few minutes to see if he will self settle, and then gone in to him. We have not had to do any sleep training as such as he is a very good sleeper, but have been talking to friends about the whole sleep thing, and am basically just curious).

[Moominsarescary]

They do need sleep I agree, ds3 is 22 months and can still wake up to 4 times a night.

He did sleep through for nearly two weeks over the Christmas period and he was like a different child, happier, cried less in the day and was less grumpy. I think it is getting to the point that the lack of a full nights sleep is more harm full and upsetting for him than cc probably would be.

[PolkadotCircus]

Moomin I agree my 3 were totally different babies after they began to sleep through-waaaay happier,brighter,content,alert.I was a different mum,I actually began to enjoy motherhood and my dc got to see a smiley face.

Why anybody feels the need to judge I have no idea,maybe it makes them feel better about their own lack of sleep.It's horses for courses and if sleep training makes you more miserable than clearly it's pointless but for those of us that have only gained a lot all I can say is mind your beeswax and butt out to those that want to judge.

[catgirl1976]

Their need is sleep

Totally agree

And for all those who think CC is evil because it "raises cortisol levels"....not as much as a lack of sleep does. A lack of sleep in infants raises cortisol levels much higher than a few nights of being allowed to cry for short intervals.

[andtheycalleditbunnylove]

what exactly defines 'controlled crying' and what the alternative actually is?

it is a ridiculous form of cruelty to your own child which people will wonder at in years to come.

the alternative is to treat your baby with lovingkindness and allow him or her to be with you whenever he desires, never leaving him or her to cry alone.

[andtheycalleditbunnylove]

there should have been an s/ before that he, but hey.

[catgirl1976]

It's one alternative bunny

It doesn't work for every baby or every family

If you have a baby that continues to cry even if you are with them and therefore doesn't sleep and is distressed, some might say that would be a rather ridiculous behave.

Parents who have babies who can be rocked to sleep or respond to pu/pd etc, tend not to need to try CC. Those whose babies don't work like that have different experiences

[Moominsarescary]

And when they are crying and throwing themselves on the floor in temper during the day because they're so tired and you cant do anything to comfort them don't worry, it's still better for them than cc

[PolkadotCircus]

Pm so laughing at bunny's post what a load of drivel. After cc mine never cried,they slept all night that is the entire point.Again an ignorant post from somebody who has never done cc.

My mum used to leave me all morning outside in the fresh air as one did in the 60s and I can't rem a thing,fab relationship with her. Very thankful actually as I'm a fab sleeper,did well at school,very healthy.

As a parent you do many things children don't like and it is for their benefit.Just dragged mine out on a freezing cold hike out on the moor,they winged all the way found-tough shit they needed fresh air and exercise,I make mine do their homework again if they don't put enough effort in and they don't like that either-again tough shit.

They do like feeling healthy and doing well at school oh and the huge hot chocolate they get after a hike.It's called parenting and raising rounded,healthy,kids who feel loved and achieve the best of their ability.Giving love is the easy bit,I do it hourly however a lot of the other stuff is harder in the short term,you do however reap the benefits long term.Sleep training is just one of those things and bunny fine it's not your way but sorry I don't think depriving babies of the rest they need and letting them live in a toxic atmosphere of exhaustion and resentment is actually kind and could actually be described as cruel so there you go-horses or courses.

[breatheslowly]

There is a continuum:

Never letting your child cry alone (so being in the same room as them all the time and being available to comfort instantly)

Going to them when they cry - it might take 30 seconds to get to their room

A very light version of CC, going to them after 2 min then extending it by 30 seconds to a maximum of 5 min.

Longer interval CC, going in after 5min, 10min, 15min etc

CIO

The Romanian Orphanage research on cortisol levels is like CIO day and night for months or years. Extrapolating that to a week's sleep training using CC at a sensible age makes no sense.

[LadyWidmerpool]

I can tell when my baby is doing a little cry before going back to sleep and when she is properly upset and therefore needs comfort. I don't go in instantly but there's no point waiting ages, she will just get more worked up and take longer to soothe.

[Zappo]

I always went in to my two. Not when they make the first grumble as they often go straight back to sleep but if they started crying/ calling for me. If I didn't go in pretty quickly they would just work themselves up and take longer to go back to sleep. They usually stopped crying as soon as I went in the room and offered them boob but when I decide to night wean them (1 at 18 months, the other at 2.5 yrs) DH would go into to settle them and that did result in a lot of crying which was heartbreaking for me. Although they were never left alone to cry I found it so terrible I often went in after 20 minutes and they would stop immediately.

DH would tell me that because I had gone in, their crying was for nothing asif I'd have stayed out the room, they would have settled eventually.

Because I couldn't listen to the crying, we agreed that DH would do bedtime and I would be out of the house and that's the only way I could deal with it. DD1 took several nights, DD2 took a couple. Both were nightweaned i this way but it wasn't easy. It wasn't sleep training persay but when they stopped waking up 5 or 6 times a night for milk, they did start to sleep better.

DD2 was ill recently and one night wouldn't settle for DH at all after settling for him for several months. She is now back in bed with me and waking for milk three or four times a night. DH wants to nightwean again but I hate going through it.

I can't stand to hear a child cry mine or anyone elses.

[DuelingFanjHoHoHo]

my son wakes up every 3 hours without fail and i either go to him or I am there (we co sleep) so he's never been left to cry. He's also never thrown himself on a floor having a tantrum because of lack of sleep.

what's the alternative? My son is 2 and I haven't found any other way of doing it than responding to him when he cries.

[rhondajean]

I didn't read baby books with my two apart from ready steady baby and I suppose I did do controlled crying but I didn't have a clue I was doing it.

Night time is for SLEEP. Apart from rare occasns when they were I'll, I wasn't up during the night with either of mines past about 6 months once they stopped needing a middle of the night feed.

Sleep is extremely important to a baby and child's development. Yes different ones need more or less sleep, dd2 needs much less than dd1 who could sleep from 7 pm to 7 am as a baby (and still now!) but the detrimental effects of a lack of sleep on a baby or small child are obvious if you know them. Now I'm not advocating ignoring really upset children but if its night time and they should be in bed, then there is something totally counter intuitive about picking them up and fussing them when they are tired and whiny and crying.

What utter tosh about it being abusive! Abusive is the baby left to cry alone in its cot for hours - not the baby that has been given proper routine and is comfortable that it knows what happens and feels safe (whatever the routine is).

[rainrainandmorerain]

dueling, same here. Ds has always been a frequent waker - I go to him to start with and then we co-sleep.

ds never slept well on his own in a cot. He needed to be settled umpteen times a night, and it took forever. Sometimes 45 mins to get him to calm down and go back to sleep - then he'd wake up again half an hour later.

Now ds (2 and a half) gets enough sleep - so do I and DP. There was a thread on her a little while back which amounted to secret co-sleepers admitting we slept with our dcs, and (mostly) loved it.

something I would also not admit to in RL... when ds was younger, I got a LOT of advice about sleep 'training' by cc zealots. Oh, how I heard that my dc would never learn to sleep if I didn't 'train' him, and if I wanted to do the best for my ds I would leave him to cry himself to sleep and blah blah blah. I've always felt more like 'it's just the way he is.' Early baby, bad reflux - he didn't have the comfiest of starts in life, and I don't blame him for not sleeping like a robot. Bit hard to explain, but I feel it's just how he is. I could get angry at him or go with the flow.

Anyway. As it is turning out, ds is one of those very chilled toddlers (so far) - no real tantrums, very easy to reason with, good language skills so expresses himself without that frustration you see in small children. It's just how he is. A lot of contemporaries are struggling with some EPIC tantrum throwing from their toddlers - proper full on scream/roll around/head banging etc. It's obviously exhausting and miserable for the parents, and quite scary.

I admit, I have thought - heavens, all that skill in 'training' your baby to sleep, and you can't do anything to 'train' them out of these tantrums?

[stopgap]

We did gradual retreat over a three-week period. My son was 15 months. It worked a treat.

We were in one hell of a predicament. Nursing to sleep hadn't worked since my son was 11 months, and he still sleptwait for itin his pram overnight. (He had raging silent reflux for seven or eight months, and had grown so accustomed to sleeping on an incline that he wouldn't accept anything else.) Before sleep training, we spent 30-40 minutes every night rocking him back and forth in his pram. Utterly nuts.

Yes, there were tears on night one of sleep training, but I was always there in the room with himplenty of hugs and cuddles the first few nights, and even some lullabiesand by the beginning of week three, I could leave the room, he'd grumble for thirty seconds, and then be out like a light for 11 or 12 hours.

[Moominsarescary]

Ds3 won't co sleep, when I go into him in the night and it's obvious he's tired even patting and shushing makes him angry. I have to sit there on the floor until he goes back to sleep.

He self settles at bedtime and when he goes for a nap with no problems, he also self settles in the night sometimes.

[Floweryhat]

I don't think there's any link between whether a child is prone to tantrums and sleep training/co-sleeping. Where is the evidence for this? It is also in many circumstances possible to get plenty of sleep without sleep training. They're not mutually exclusive. Equally some families have children who regress after cc and they end up doing it repeatedly after every illness etc. some of them get v tired!

As far as tantrums go, some of mine have been v laid back and well behaved, others not so much. Personalities and other circumstances vary too, it's not all about sleep. Actually my 3 year old has always been the best sleeper of the lot and easiest to get to bed etc. She's extremely tantrummy and a right handful at the moment -v argumentative. The only major difference between her and her older sibs is that she's stopped bf already and she's number 3. Oh, and of course she is a different child...

[Moominsarescary]

You can tell the difference when a toddler is having a tantrum because of frustration/ not getting their own way or because they are tired. At least I can with mine.

[andtheycalleditbunnylove]

tell you what, that one who is laughing somewhere up the page - you be cruel to your children and i'll be kind to mine.

[SomeKindOfDeliciousBiscuit]

I agree with bunnylove . Our DD goes to sleep in our bed a couple of hours or so before we join her. We have a video monitor for those hours, and when she stirs I go up and breastfeed her to sleep again. No crying. She is kneeling up, rubbing her little eyes when I come in and lie down next to her. I give her a little squeeze, she gives me the biggest smile and puts her arms round my neck for a hug, then lies down and feeds to sleep. It's very quick and we're all happy. She doesn't have to be unhappy because she knows we'll come straight away. Why leave her crying? To teach her no-one cares?
The problem stems from the idea that babies are somehow wicked, manipulative creatures with no good manners about personal space. Silly idea.

[catgirl1976]

[rainrainandmorerain]

"The problem stems from the idea that babies are somehow wicked manipulative creatures...."

Yes. I've always been disturbed by the language people use about small babies when they use harsh parenting methods - it's always something like 'they know what they are doing....', 'they just want attention/they're not unhappy, they are angry and need to be taught a lesson' etc etc.

btw, I have a lot of sympathy for mums (parents, yes, but most of this sort of thing seems to fall to mums) who have very rigidly schedule driven lives, where they have very limited opportunities for 'working around' their baby, and so end up trying to force the baby into habits which fit into their lives and routines. I'm thinking in particular about mums who have to return to work very early, don't have much support at home etc. As a co-sleeping parent who does not leave babies to cry (and who knows what it is like to be exhausted to the point of utter misery) - I do understand that some mothers' circumstances mean that they they have very few parenting 'choices' open to them.

[LadyIsabellaWrotham]

Despite being in the CC camp I've always responded to mine in the middle of the night. IME if a child has gone to sleep in the semi-dark on their own (with teddy and blankie) in a cot - reassured, kissed, and knowing that mum will come if they call, then if they roll over and semi-rouse in the night they will not be unsettled - everything is just as it should be, and they'll mutter and carry on sleeping. If they wake up and cry then that's a sign that something is actually wrong and they need attention/cuddles whatever.

But if an older baby goes to sleep in mum's arms, or even latched on, and then rouses to find that someone has stolen mummy and dumped them in a cot, then it's not surprising they kick off. Ferber's analogy is "how would you feel if you went to sleep in bed and some maniac moved you into the bath while you were asleep?".

From this perspective "on their own" doesn't have to be alone in the room - shh-pat, or sitting quietly in a chair next to them reassuring occasionally is also fine. And of course if you're co-sleeping then the issue doesn't arise.

[catgirl1976]

I have thought of my baby as wicked or manipulative

I have thought of him as needing to get enough sleep

I co-slept till around nine months, after which time it became impractical for him to continue to do so for a wide range of reasons

He did not respond to any other method than cc, which took 2 nights before he was sleeping through in his own bed as opposed to the weeks of distress and lack of sleep all other methods (including co-sleeping) were putting him through

All babies are different. All families are different. Different babies respond differently to different approaches

CC at a sensible age and done well is not "cruel" or "damaging".

Telling other mothers that they are, is.

[catgirl1976]

That should say never thought of my baby as wicked or manipulative