To ask what exactly defines 'controlled crying' and what the alternative actually is?

[goldiehorn]

I always assumed 'controlled crying' was when you leave the baby to cry for a few minutes, then go in and see them, then go out again and leave them for a little while again and then go in again and so on.

Whenever I see controlled crying threads, there is always someone who comes on and says its cruel and they would never do it. Does this means that people really go into their child as soon as they start crying and soothe them?

Also, people often say, 'dont do controlled crying, do the baby whisperer/no cry sleep solution.' From talking to people I have picked up that these are when you go in and shhhhh/pat etc. But dont you still have to leave them to cry for a little bit before you go in and soothe them?

It seems to me that surely you either you go straight to them at the first cry, or you are doing some form of controlled crying. What are the middle solutions?

(Just interested as with DS, we have always let him cry for a few minutes to see if he will self settle, and then gone in to him. We have not had to do any sleep training as such as he is a very good sleeper, but have been talking to friends about the whole sleep thing, and am basically just curious).

[PolkadotCircus]

Exactly Stop and Mosman where there is a will there most definitely isn't always a way.Many mums would far rather be at home cuddling their babies all day long but bills don't pay themselves,some mums would like to do half and half but the job doesn't allow it,bfing doesn't always work,you can't change a child's personality or ability however much you will it.........

You make a statement then utterly negate it in the same post with your snide,ridiculous comment add ons.

[stopgap]

Co-sleeping doesn't work out for everyone, just as breastfeeding doesn't work out for everyone. My son shared our bed for the first three months, but then started with awful silent reflux which required him sleeping in a stroller at night, on an incline. Once this passed, we tried to bring him back to our bed and it was ridiculous--putting fingers up our noses, chatting away.

Nursing to sleep has not worked for me for many months (my son is now 17 months and still BF) and so we were recently faced with the decision to sleep train (in our case, gradual retreat) and all I see before me is a loving, well-rested boy who's thriving. Contrary to assumption about those that sleep-train, I always go to him at night if he cries (probably once or twice a month). I mostly use a baby carrier during the day, did baby-led weaning etc. so sleep-training is not necessarily done by one kind of parent, nor do I think gently encouraging my son to sleep on a flat surface has damaged our bond, either now or in the long-term.

[Mosman]

If you consider controlled crying progress then there's nothing more to add.
I gave up caring what other people do with their children along time ago, my way is one way I'm not jumping up and down calling CC abuse but its not the only option open to people and to suggest its the only way if you're a single mum with one leg no family working eight days a week is most definitely bullshit. Where there's a will there will always be a way.

[Moominsarescary]

You are the one who brought up babies and toddlers in a bed at nap time, we were talking about cc with older dc. So not as ridiculously easy to get a baby and toddler to nap at the same time as you said then.

[PolkadotCircus]

No you were arguing your way is best I was simply illustrating that others don't parent like you and think actually their own way for their child is best.

Also I cuddled my children for most of the day as I was with them all 24/7 from the day they were born until they started school,cuddles soooooo not an issue in this house and I'm pretty sure every other house of a sleep trained child.


Couldn't give a stuff how old co-sleeping is,as a society we're changed in how we parent in many ways- a lot for the better.

[Mosman]

Oh dear hit a nerve have I ? If you'd rather eat your hair that cuddle your children to sleep that's your business but co sleeping works very well has done for many many families since time began.
I genuinely couldn't give a stuff how you've brought your children up but seen as you are arguing your way is the "best" I'll add some balance thank you very much.

And yes a prem baby would be different but I'd blood hope you weren't doing CC with them either.

[PolkadotCircus]

Soooooo what do you do if the toddler or newborn doesn't want a nap and want to play,eat,bounce,run around instead?

How about if you don't actually have time to nap anyway?

[Moominsarescary]

Yes except some dc don't like to cosleep, also mine were prem so I wouldn't co sleep anyway

[PolkadotCircus]

Absolute b*s and irresponsible.

[Mosman]

HOw to make a toddler and newborn nap at the same time ? Ridiculously easy get into bed, put one one side of you and one the other, snuggle up and they both nod off, you do too. Bloody marvellous.

[PolkadotCircus]

Err you seem mighty interested Mosman.

Your if I can co sleep,bf and not cc anybody can view is mighty arrogant.

I and many others have no desire at all to do any of the above.Who died and made you the parenting expert?

A routine is a waaaay better way to go IMHO, I think co sleeping is risky and anyway utterly loathe it as do my children and bf is sooooo not worth the anguish and trauma when it doesn't work so couldn't give a stuff how you parent.

Oh and re your ridiculous post re naps further down I'd love to see how you make in a newborn and toddlers sleep at the same time in the day without sleep training. Also I had waaaaay to much to do in the day re playing,reading with all my children,cooking,cleaning,shopping,getting exercise,seeing other adults to have the luxury of sleeping in the day.I know a lot of mums and not one could sleep in the day-ever.


Your ideals worked for you great,they would never work for me and more importantly I'd rather eat my own hair than parent that way anyway.

[catgirl1976]

I have one day WAHM 4 days WOHM rain

Guess which day is the hardest!

Someone telling me I could "do what I want" on my WAHM day would make me very stabby :)

[rainrainandmorerain]

somekind - yes, I agree, the 'I want them to sleep through the night because I just think they should and don't want to see them between 7pm and 7am' parents get on my wick. Someone I know got stressy about bedtimes and her dd waking up because she 'missed watching telly' in the evenings. Well me too, honey! Life's a bitch....

mosman - I'm not a sahm, I'm self employed/main breadwinner and went back to work FULL TIME (albeit in my own home) before ds was one week old. He was ebf and co-slept (not from the start, but once I'd worked out that was the best way - wish I'd done it earlier now).

I suppose my making allowances for other mums' circumstances is partly because I hate it when people make wrong assumptions about mine. Like assuming because I am a WAHM I can spend all day with ds and then work all night. Or 'you can do what you want' etc. I know famlies with several small children, a working mum who also does most of the domestic arrangments/work, and whose dps really don't help much. That's not my situation and I can see it makes different demands on them, is all.

[Mosman]

I'm thinking in particular about mums who have to return to work very early, don't have much support at home etc. As a co-sleeping parent who does not leave babies to cry (and who knows what it is like to be exhausted to the point of utter misery) - I do understand that some mothers' circumstances mean that they they have very few parenting 'choices' open to them.

I was a 23 year old single mum living on the other side of the world from my family and who returned to work when I kid you not the umbilical cord stump was still attached, bloody hell if I could co sleep and breast fed and not use cc then I don't see why other's can't. That said I genuinely have no interest these days in what other people do with their babies sleep routines.

[catgirl1976]

We have a video monitor Somekind

When we are downstairs in the evening we can see him

I check on him when I go to bed and then DH checks again when we do

If he wakes in the night (very rare) we can look on the monitor to see what's going on

We also know the difference between a "I have woken up but will settle myself in a minute and go back to sleep" cry and a "Something is wrong" cry. If it's the latter or he won't self settle we will go in (this happens very, very , maybe once a month, but because it generally means he has done a poo we always go in)

I agree we do what is best for our individual babies in our individual circumstances

[SomeKindOfDeliciousBiscuit]

Tbh I can understand and agree with the previous poster who said (in other words) that this is all well and good if you have the luxury of choice. I'm a sahm but if I wasn't our routines might have been different. I still think we'd cosleep and not leave her to cry, but she might have wanted different things is she was at nursery all day, who knows.

I certainly don't think less of anyone whose choices are limited by their situation - you do what you can, the best for your baby in the circumstances .

I do think it's cruel when people just want to put them away for the night for the hell of it, though. I go cold when friends say "I went in the next morning and he was just covered in sick, it was everywhere! He's been crying in the night but he does." Poor fucking baby :(

[catgirl1976]

That should say never thought of my baby as wicked or manipulative

[catgirl1976]

I have thought of my baby as wicked or manipulative

I have thought of him as needing to get enough sleep

I co-slept till around nine months, after which time it became impractical for him to continue to do so for a wide range of reasons

He did not respond to any other method than cc, which took 2 nights before he was sleeping through in his own bed as opposed to the weeks of distress and lack of sleep all other methods (including co-sleeping) were putting him through

All babies are different. All families are different. Different babies respond differently to different approaches

CC at a sensible age and done well is not "cruel" or "damaging".

Telling other mothers that they are, is.

[LadyIsabellaWrotham]

Despite being in the CC camp I've always responded to mine in the middle of the night. IME if a child has gone to sleep in the semi-dark on their own (with teddy and blankie) in a cot - reassured, kissed, and knowing that mum will come if they call, then if they roll over and semi-rouse in the night they will not be unsettled - everything is just as it should be, and they'll mutter and carry on sleeping. If they wake up and cry then that's a sign that something is actually wrong and they need attention/cuddles whatever.

But if an older baby goes to sleep in mum's arms, or even latched on, and then rouses to find that someone has stolen mummy and dumped them in a cot, then it's not surprising they kick off. Ferber's analogy is "how would you feel if you went to sleep in bed and some maniac moved you into the bath while you were asleep?".

From this perspective "on their own" doesn't have to be alone in the room - shh-pat, or sitting quietly in a chair next to them reassuring occasionally is also fine. And of course if you're co-sleeping then the issue doesn't arise.

[rainrainandmorerain]

"The problem stems from the idea that babies are somehow wicked manipulative creatures...."

Yes. I've always been disturbed by the language people use about small babies when they use harsh parenting methods - it's always something like 'they know what they are doing....', 'they just want attention/they're not unhappy, they are angry and need to be taught a lesson' etc etc.

btw, I have a lot of sympathy for mums (parents, yes, but most of this sort of thing seems to fall to mums) who have very rigidly schedule driven lives, where they have very limited opportunities for 'working around' their baby, and so end up trying to force the baby into habits which fit into their lives and routines. I'm thinking in particular about mums who have to return to work very early, don't have much support at home etc. As a co-sleeping parent who does not leave babies to cry (and who knows what it is like to be exhausted to the point of utter misery) - I do understand that some mothers' circumstances mean that they they have very few parenting 'choices' open to them.

[catgirl1976]

[SomeKindOfDeliciousBiscuit]

I agree with bunnylove . Our DD goes to sleep in our bed a couple of hours or so before we join her. We have a video monitor for those hours, and when she stirs I go up and breastfeed her to sleep again. No crying. She is kneeling up, rubbing her little eyes when I come in and lie down next to her. I give her a little squeeze, she gives me the biggest smile and puts her arms round my neck for a hug, then lies down and feeds to sleep. It's very quick and we're all happy. She doesn't have to be unhappy because she knows we'll come straight away. Why leave her crying? To teach her no-one cares?
The problem stems from the idea that babies are somehow wicked, manipulative creatures with no good manners about personal space. Silly idea.

[andtheycalleditbunnylove]

tell you what, that one who is laughing somewhere up the page - you be cruel to your children and i'll be kind to mine.

[Moominsarescary]

You can tell the difference when a toddler is having a tantrum because of frustration/ not getting their own way or because they are tired. At least I can with mine.

[Floweryhat]

I don't think there's any link between whether a child is prone to tantrums and sleep training/co-sleeping. Where is the evidence for this? It is also in many circumstances possible to get plenty of sleep without sleep training. They're not mutually exclusive. Equally some families have children who regress after cc and they end up doing it repeatedly after every illness etc. some of them get v tired!

As far as tantrums go, some of mine have been v laid back and well behaved, others not so much. Personalities and other circumstances vary too, it's not all about sleep. Actually my 3 year old has always been the best sleeper of the lot and easiest to get to bed etc. She's extremely tantrummy and a right handful at the moment -v argumentative. The only major difference between her and her older sibs is that she's stopped bf already and she's number 3. Oh, and of course she is a different child...