Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

Where I am the buses have spaces for both. There is ample space for 2 wheelchairs on one side and space for 2 buggies/prams on the other. There are also easy access seats the next row back both sides. We have lost the storage area so all bags have to be held but to be honest I don't think people would now leave bags out of sight!

I used to use these buses everyday going into a major city - at different times due to shift work - and have never seen a problem arise from lack of space.

We got our new buses 18 months ago so maybe this will be something that will be seen more widely when the different areas and companies update the buses.

These are Arriva buses too!

Gazzlaw

It is about people being able to live their lives.

And as an able bodied mother the possibility of having to get off the bus to make room for a wheelchair to go in the wheelchair space is a rare inconvenience in my otherwise sunny, forward- looking life.
For a wheelchair user trying to get access to their allotted sace is an issue every time they leave home.

So I should shut up, move and thank my lucky stars

Bloody hell i missed the post by rulebritannia on p6 about lots of bags and would they have to move them/get them off for a wheelchair user, if they were in the wheelchair space or blocking the way for ither passsengers of course you would have to move them. Its a space for a wheelchair user not a fucking luggage space!

No-one group should be disadvantaged at the expense of any other group IMHO. It is just as valid that a parent (but particularly mothers) can live their life as and when they want to do things as for an elderly person or someone in a wheelchair. And vice versa

Disability is a protected characteristc under the Equality Act. Being a parent with a buggy isn't. What part of that do you find difficult to comprehend?

I've seen plenty floundering trying to keep older DCs under control, hold onto babies on lurching buses, watch their handbags etc

Ahh right, I get it. Because some parents are unorganised, or unable to control their children that makes it fine to leave disabled people sat in the rain until a bus comes along with parents who are capable of looking atfer their children!

Quite, MrsDeVere. And ...

For a wheelchair user trying to get access to their allotted sace is an issue every time they leave home.

^This.

gazzalaw

What makes you think that disabled people don't live in 'leafy, middle-class rural or suburban' areas?

dial a ride
someone else saying children have rights too
this thread will end badly

Being able to push your pram onto a bus without folding it up is a bonus that makes life a little bit easier.

Being able to access public transport can make life for a person with disabilities possible. Not easier. Just possible.

I don't understand how this is hard for some people to comprehend.

I cannot face folding a buggy and carrying the baby and managing the shopping, therefore I walk...I'm lucky in that I have that choice.

We're lucky where I live I've never encountered a problem with this as everyone helps each other out. Whenever I've had a buggy on the bus and a wheelchair user wants to get on the bus driver gets up to help the buggies to fold then another passenger will hold the buggy and help lift it off the bus when needed so the parent can concentrate on keeping the children and any bags safe.

This works perfectly well and I've never seen anyone ever think to complain about having to move.

The thing is, it doesn't have to be either/or.

Plenty of buses have space for both a wheelchair and buggies- wheelchair users and parents with buggies using public transport is the norm now. Public transport should therefore be designed to accommodate them.

Well, off the back of this thread I have selected a brand spanking new pushchair to use on the bus.

I have only found one review on mumsnet though, so I would appreciate any comments from those in the know about these things as to whether my choice is practical.

it's in swedish but it's a known brand.

Buses are free where I live and I only ever go two or three miles at the most. I've never met a wheelchair user and never seen more than two pushchairs/prams on at one time, but I still would prefer to fold up than get off.

I've bought a double where the carrycot clips off or you can attach the carseat to it so don't have to worry about where to put the baby when folding the pushchair.

But then I had my first 18 years ago and you had no choice but to fold the pushchair. I'm pretty sure we are lucky enough to be able to take pushchairs on to busses now because those with disabilities campaigned for the rights to have wheelchair accessible busses. I wouldn't dream of making someone in a wheelchair wait because I'm too unorganised to be able to fold my pushchair.

It looks fine for folding boomberang but I know people whom have used them and complained about the straps being fiddly, shouldn't be a problem for occasional use tho :)

Is that the POP? I loved mine. until MIL ran it over

I try to avoid getting the bus unless we're using the park and ride but:

1 and 5 - No, all 1 would do is move the discrimination from one group to another and 5 could result in other bus users taking matters into their own hands.

2,3 and 4 - Are fine with me - 4 - as long as there is a suitable alternative bus and no one is left waiting for ages. Could the onwards ticket be used on any bus regardless of the bus company? eg. If you can get another bus with a different company 20 mins before the next one with the original company

7 - only if 4 happens and there is a suitable alternative bus within a set time period either at the same stop or one close by. No one wants to have to wait ages for a bus regardless of whether that person is in a wheelchair or not.

I have a 4 year old wheelchair user and a 2 year old buggy user amongst my children so I see both sides. Mostly the buggy users and wheelchair users in our town all manage to use the buses with nobody having to fold until the bus company in their wisdom decide to put a non accessible bus on our route and all hell breaks loose.

Wheelchair users take priority over buggies, no question about that.

Children using SN buggies should have the same priority as wheelchair users. I have tried folding an SN buggy before and it's a 2 person job plus another person to hold the child.

DLA high rate mobility is about £50 a week. Bus ticket for me and DS1 is about £50 a week. DS2 will be entitled to a free bus pass when he is 5 but only valid after 9am, not a lot of use for the journey to school.

Although parents with buggies should fold for a wheelchair user, I think the bus drivers should be more accomodating. Tutting and huffing from the bus driver is not helpful when you're trying to fold a buggy.

I also think there should be some sort of allowances made for people who have milder disabilities eg people who struggle more than others to fold up a buggy because of arthritis or children like my DS3 who is not really disabled but as he is 2 and can only walk about 5 steps it does make things trickier.

Dawndonna If you need more people to complain to first bus or any other help please pm me. My DS2 is only 4 but already he has very strong opinions about wheelchairs and buses.

www.amazon.co.uk/ZETA-VOOOM-Black-Rain-Cover/dp/B004D9VAI0/ref=sr_1_1?s=baby&ie=UTF8&qid=1357076392&sr=1-1

This buggy is suitable from birth its easily one handed foldable and quite light as well as being small when folded.but robust.

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

8. Refit buses so they have both wheelchair AND buggy spaces just like many other bus companies have done

no.4 should be standard practice anyway. If you've voluntarily vacated the bus to make room for another person, you shouldn't have to fork out again to complete the rest of your journey.

I visited a friend in an electric wheelchair in London a few months ago. We caught three buses from the shopping centre to her home and each and every one was a nightmare. Firstly we couldn't get on the first 2 buses (at stop 1) as there were pushchairs in front of us in the queue (fair enough) but then another pushchair tried to get on in front of us and I argued that we should be let on first. The bus driver rolled his eyes but did let us on first.

The second bus was better as there was no pushchair occupying the space but the bus driver was arsey about people moving out of the aisle to let my friend through in her chair (she's an awesome driver of her chair!).

The third would have been a nightmare but it was dark, raining, 60 mins into the journey and I'd got bolshy after my previous 2 buses. A pushchair was in the space and I spoke to the driver and said wheelchairs take priority (as per the signs). He said "what do you want me to do about it?". Well, getting off your bum and asking the couple if they would mind folding the pushchair would be a start! So I popped to the couple and said would they mind moving the pushchair so my friend could park in the space and then I thought the pushchair would fit in the space at the end of my friend's wheelchair. They were more than happy to move it (unlike the idiots standing in the middle of the aisle who would not move back to let my friend on until another, equally bolshy women told them all to move). So my friend parked on a sixpence, the couple move the pushchair back into the space and the bus merrily went on its way - no thanks to the bus driver.

I can understand why people who use wheelchairs hate using public transport. As a mum to be I completely understand the position of mums but buggies can be folded down (with help if there are nice people on the bus/decent bus drivers). My friend's electric wheelchair can't. Buggies not being folded is a matter of convenience; the vast majority of people who use wheelchairs can't get out and have them folded. And electric wheelchairs there's no chance. The spaces are for wheelchair users or buggies if no wheelchair user needs them and bus driver should enforce that common sense policy. So both number 3 and number 4 make sense to me.

They need to find a solution to accomodate both...a previous poster says her buses have spaces for 2 wheelchairs and 2 buggies.. Not expecting buses to magic out of space but its something to work towards...

It's elf & Safety! Never used to be a problem, all the pushchairs, shopping bags on wheels etc would just budge up &squash up.
Nobody had allocated spaces & the driver would just yell... "move down a bit".

Don't get the same problen on the tube, everyone is just rammed in.
DS2's wheelchair was entangled with a large pushchair on the district line a few weeks ago all with someone's arse in his face... Now thats equality

That's a lovely chair, sock but I tried to buy it and they won't send it to Sweden. Booo!