Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

boomerwang- I have this
www.mothercare.com/Mothercare-Vio-3-Wheeler-Stroller/333471,default,pd.html

It looks bigger than it is but it fold inwards like the silver cross one but also folds in half the other way like this

mama.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/petite_star_zia_folded.jpg

so on the buses here (where there is no luggage area) I can fit it by my legs at the front of a seat. My old silver cross one was too long and I wasnt allowed it folded as it stuck into the aisle.

I love my little buggy for the bus although if you put more than a single light bag onto it it tips up .

like I said earlier blue badge = disabled space on bus

I had my children more than 10 years ago so was in the era when you couldn't take an unfolded buggy on the bus, and you certainly couldn't take a pram. I didn't drive then and had a 16mth gap between my children so did have a period of having a tiny baby and a toddler and using public transport quite extensively. I used an umbrella buggy and a sling, and then a buggy board.

So in effect the following were in practice:

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.

I still managed to use public transport. It was a bit tricky, and occasionally quite scary, but totally possible. For wheelchair users at that time it was however totally impossible. they simply couldn't use most buses at all.

I'd like to see: 3,4,5 and 7 enforced, but think if wheelchair users are still denied access to public transport because some parents refuse to follow the rules then 4 and 2 may be necessary, or devantenigma's suggestion re blue badges.

Which would be a shame because then there would be an empty space and the majority of responsible buggy users would lose out because of the inconsiderate actions of a few.

Oh and perhaps one more thing, when selling 'travel systems' buyers should be advised that larger prams/buggies can't be taken on public transport. I think it is the ridiculous size of many current prams/buggies is a significant part of the problem.

The trouble with making buses give more and more space to buggies is that it means less seats and space for everyone else. Given the choice most bus companies wouldn't have wheelchair spaces after all.

Or every bus company provide an additional bus, say every hour, or 2 hours depending on location/need etc. After a proper trial it should be easy to determine an average.

Anyway, so this bus would be in addition to current buses with wheelchair access. However, this extra bus would have fold up seats, and priority would be wheelchairs/buggies/shopping trollies.

The original bus would obviously still run, but with an addition of some type of gate blocking the wheelchair area. Only way to open is with the equivalent of a blue badge for transport.

Or better still because the bus company would up the cost to passengers. Forget the extra bus and just put up a barrier, only open if you have the blue badge type card.

Self involved precious parents would soon learn to use common sense when buying buggy and buy something compact rather than mini cars that are currently used.

Maybe there should be a different fare for people who fold their buggy, maybe 75% of full fare if you fold and you pay 100% if you don't.

Although then people might start taking empty buggies with them to get a cheaper fare.

devientenigma not everyone who uses a wheelchair has / wants a blue badge. It's bleedingly obvious from the wheelchair they use that they need the wheelchair space, surely?

sashh - good idea. 100% for everyone but 150% for an unfolded buggy.

It's not always obvious. Plus is it makes it an easier/fairer system so be it. I had to fold my SN buggy down and lie my heavy son on the floor (unable to sit) while I dismantled his heavy disabled buggy, lugged in all his extra gear on top of what an average toddler needs, to get a seat. Then go back and pick him and the oxygen tank he was attached to, while getting the stares, tuts and comments before the bus could pull away and again when we left for our already late cardiology appointment.

I'm a buggy user and I 100% agree that wheelchair users should get priority for the space on the bus but don't think that options 1, 2 or 5 are the answer and that the other options are the ones that would be most workable and fair - basically if the space is free then a buggy user should be able to use it regardless of buggy type, etc however if a wheelchair user (including adapted pushchairs for disabled children) needs the space then the buggy user should have to either collapse their buggy or leave the bus with an onward journey ticket from the driver.

I have a P&T Dot, it used to be DD and DS using it but now it's just DD, we have no plans to get rid of it as it'll be used as a double again at some point. Where we live is semi-rural and we do a lot of walking as well as using the bus. We've had lightweight strollers before but I have an old back injury from a car accident that was "fully healed" 12-18 months after but in reality flares up from time to time and I can't use an umbrella stroller for ages and ages, short trips and tiny DD only. Our main bus company is Arriva North East, the company mentioned in the letter.

When I take my P&T on the bus if the space is empty, I use it. If the space is full I either collapse the pushchair or I wait for the next bus (usually with DD and DS and shopping it's just easier to wait for the next one). If I'm on the bus, in the space, and a wheelchair user needs the space then I either collapse the buggy or I get off the bus. So there, not every buggy user is an inconsiderate twat. Maybe it's where I live or the route I use but I've never seen anyone refuse to get out of the space for a wheelchair user, reading some of the stories here I see that isn't the norm however on some of occasions where I've collapsed the buggy other passengers have tutted and muttered at me for collapsing the buggy and tutted and muttered at the wheelchair user for making me move even though I was happy to. You can't please some people.

The only time I haven't collapsed the buggy or gotten off for a wheelchair user was on one occasion where I got to the doors and the man in the wheelchair saw I had a newborn and a toddler, on my own, winter, getting dark and insisted I stay on the bus while I insisted he get on the bus. He told me to "get the bairns away home, it's too cold for them to be sitting in a bus stop waiting for the next bus".

OP, maybe you should copy a link to this thread to the Facebook post?

exactly Bear, it's all down to common decency and courtesy as well as need

You 'up North', Bear? I've never seen any trouble on the buses up here either.

I'm up North and you just need to look at my earlier post to realise it happens

Point taken about SN buggies devientenigma. I forget that people don't always realise that children are in buggies because they have SN.

I think they should count as 'wheelchairs' for the purposes of travelling in a bus. I'm sure many people in a wheelchair wouldn't want you to have to turf your DS out of his buggy so they can have a space.

I wouldn't mind if there was a little help Sunny. He's too challenging and complex now to even use public transport. His risk assessment is ridiculous and you need to be away within so many feet of him meaning you can't sit next to him in the car and he is in the 3rd of a people carrier due to putting the driver at risk.

I am 'up North' (DH likes to make geeky references about us being 'north of the wall :o). I realise it happens and reading some of the stories here I feel lucky that I apparently live somewhere nice where people are decent to one another at least most of the time

Devient, in your position, I would have refused based on the fact that the space was occupied by someone disabled already - your ds.

Luckily where I am there's space for a wheelchair and for 2 buggies.

must say he's a wheelchair user now, on to our 3rd wheelchair and he's only nearly 12

And I do understand about the driver risk thing, having a severely autistic 18 year old who cannot be anywhere near the driver as he tends to attack from behind. No way could he cope (or would it be safe) on public transport, as he needs 3 to 1 care.

Bit like the buses here Manic from what I remember. The space wasn't occupied by DS although I could of done without the hassle lol, mind after that, which was hard work and basically I felt sorry for my son who has a low immune system and a heart and lung condition to be lying on a dirty floor, I started taking his blue badge and argued the toss.

oh Manic, can I ask what school he attended, we are struggling to find one and DS has been out of it for 3 year now. We have looked at 5 boroughs. Inbox me if you feel like telling me, understand if not.

I think there should be an established heirachy of need that is up in the busses and widely known. If a person higher up the list wants to voluntarily give way to someone lower down it then that would be their choice but nobody lower down the list would be allowed to refuse the space to someone above them. That might be too simplistic when you have to take things like last bus of the night and rural areas into account but I think it would work the majority of the time.

My heirachy would be:

1. Adult essential wheelchair users
2. Adults in wheelchairs who are able to sit on a seat and fold
3. Children in wheelchairs
4. SN Buggies
5. Buggies 'manned' by disabled parents
6. Buggies that don't fold
7. Buggies containing sleeping children
8. Large and heavy luggage
9. Buggies containing awake children
10. Less heavy luggage
11. Empty Buggies

I'm actually not sure what I think here

I think wheelchair users absolutely do need priority over buggy users in the normal run of the mill, unless the parent or child has a disability which means that the buggy is needed.

At the same time, I do think parents and young children do need to be able to use buses. Its a number of years since any of my three were in a buggy, but I do remember how hard it was sometimes to fold the buggy (I had a maclaren, so really easy to fold). Basically, if one or both kids were asleep, what do you do? And also, what do you actually do with the baby while you are folding the buggy, assuming you are not super organised with a spare sling to hand? (the images I have now of mumsnet super-sling-mum...). And say you have foolishly had three or four children, and foolishly perhaps not left an optimal seventeen years between kids, what do you do with the other kid who is haring towards the back of the bus.

What I did was chicken out and drive. But if the buses hadn't been so unremittingly shit about letting buggy users on, I'd have used buses far more.

I think the mistake here is to pitch buggy users against wheelchair users. I think a better approach is to say, there are these spaces which are priority spaces for wheelchair users and we are going to make sure that they have them to use. Now (assuming this is resolved to everyone's satisfaction), what are we going to do to make buses an easier and nicer place for young families?

but that puts my situation at no 4 when realistically no 2 could fold and sit in a seat possibly easier than me, just an example

^^
true. I was thinking of the size of the child for lifting/lying as oppose to an adult needing help moving/walking. Do you know how unusual your situation is with the oxygen? I'm guessing most children small enough for an SN buggy could just be lifted?

I think yours would be a situation where any decent person would see that you were in greater need.

I agree it's bloody complicated though!