Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

I have been refused boarding with a folded buggy. The accessible buses do not have the luggage storage area that old style buses had. So folding buggies is not really an alternative for parents.

Wheelchair users should have priority. However, it is a bit simplistic to say that parents have choices which wheelchair users do not. I wouldn't expect that anyone is getting on the bus by choice. Everyone would prefer to drive or take a taxi if it was an option. People find themselves in situations which they can't do a lot about. If that includes relying on a bus for transportation they have no more choice in that matter if they are disabled or able bodied. Distances can be long enough to prohibit walking even for the fit and healthy.

The real problem is not with the people who use the buses, it's with the poor state of public transport which makes the experience stressful.

Until I learnt to drive at the age of 17 I had rarely been in a car, gazzalw. My mum managed to fold down my pram without losing any of my other siblings. She must have been a wonder woman judging by how hard some people find it. It isn't hard to fold down a pram if you choose the right one and practice.

I really don't like the notion that babies are "lifestyle choices" as several posters have said. Disabled people have rights. The other rights which we should be interested in are not the rights of parents with buggies, but the rights of the children IN those buggies. It is also a gender issue due to the disproportionate number of women who are primary carers of small children.

This issue always brings out a lot of "well I managed it", "how dare they want to use public transport", "they didn't ask to be disabled you know" comments - ones on forums other than mumsnet tend to become particularly misogynistic. It is really just a question of rudeness. You don't need to ban unfoldable pushchairs. You need to ban rude people. Identifying them is obviously the tricky part.. (Some kind of IABU badge perhaps).

We are quite used to walking miles with the DCs and always have done but there are times when we, like all parents might choose a bus over walking for a reason. Maybe they've had loads of shopping to do (and if you don't have a car the shopping has to be transported somehow!), they're exhausted or not feeling well, maybe they've got to get somewhere within a given time-frame, it's dark and they don't want to risk their personal safety. Whilst in theory and in other circumstances a parent (who has manners) might say "certainly I'll collapse my buggy, not get on the bus or get off and wait for the next one" there will be occasions when it's the last thing they feel like doing.

So wheelchair users aren't allowed to go shopping?
So a wheelchair user could be exhausted or not feeling well, but that's fine?
Wheelchair users don't have appointments then?
Nice, that the safety of the wheelchair user isn't important.
It occasions like that that leaves the wheelchair user waiting at the bus stop watching endless buses going past.

Beertrickspotter - I have a friend who gets out of her wheelchair, folds it, puts it in the boot of her car and drives off. Not saying I think anyone should have to fold their wheelchair to get on the bus, but it's not true that no wheelchair users can get out of their chairs.

I think that the last two options are reasonable. In Edinburgh they banned buggies for a while and iirc they had to change the policy. Where I live you can't guarantee an accessible bus, 4/5 will be but there may be one with steps and they are only every 30mins. I had a Mclaren and a sling. I could fold the buggy with baby in a sling, a bit more tricky with a toddler - but doable, the toddler got really good at getting on and grabbing a seat while I paid, folded etc. Often people would help me with the buggy. It was irritating when the bus was not a low-rider, but had I been disabled it would have made public transport nearly impossible. I presume that this unreliability is why I have never seen a wheelchair user on our local bus service.

I am merely trying to put forward the point that most parents probably wouldn't even get a bus if it wasn't a case of "needs must" just because of just such issues - I know we always avoided using them unless there was good cause to do so - so much so that even now in a buggy-free life, DW is laughed at by friends for the very long walks to shops that she will undertake (that most wouldn't even consider on foot). Maybe some of the parents that do use buses with buggies are past the point of caring.

I would say that the issue is essentially about adequate/good enough bus provision to accommodate the needs of the passengers. If a bus route takes in a hospital, a day centre for the disabled, an old people's home and a big (possibly social) housing estate, it goes without saying that there is going to be much, much greater demand than a bus route traversing a leafy, middle-class rural or suburban area. The buses should be sufficiently frequent that they can cope with heavy traffic from all the passenger groups without disadvantaging any one of them.

gazzalw, I use public transport all the time and am firmly in the 'they are wheelchair spaces, fold your damn buggy if you are occupying one and a wheelchair user needs it' camp. Because that is the case. They are wheelchair spaces. It's a nice bonus for buggy pushers that they can use them when they are unoccupied. You have to fold your buggy when they are needed for the purpose for which they are intended.

Wheelchair spaces on buses are there because wheelchair users campaigned long and hard for them.

If you want specially assigned buggy spaces I suggest you campaign for them. You might find you get lots of support if you don't try to do it at the expense of wheelchair users.

FWIW I think there is a lot more bus companies could do without having to change the design of buses - not only training drivers in customer care but easing up on the stupid targets which result in drivers driving off before people have a chance to sit down safely, and of course providing more frequent services so there's more room for everyone.

Are there seriously people who refuse to fold their buggy when a wheelchair user wants to get on?

Seriously, Yes. Hard to believe, but yes.

I've witnessed it with my own eyes on a bus in the Midlands area. Pouring rain, crowded bus, 2 big buggies and parents quite frankly blocking access for everyone, and being quite stroppy about it.

Man at an unsheltered bus stop in a wheelchair, already soaking wet. The women with pushchairs would not move and laughed.

Because there was no conductor, the bus driver could do little except apologise to the man in a wheelchair, as he had to keep to timetable. It was absolutely awful to witness, and I still feel awful (2 years later) that I just watched and did nothing.

So I am completely in agreement with all posters who say that wheelchairs have precedence over prams etc every time And I've done my time of struggling with a push chair in crowds & on the Tube. But I had a choice: about having a child, going out, being mobile. That man in the wheel chair had no choice about being in a wheel chair.

Gazza - aren't you lucky that you CAN walk. Disabled people have the right to go anywhere they want, not just to places on the same bus root as a hospital!

5dcs I suspect responses to complaints about quality of service differ between bus companies. My experiences with Stagecoach are good, if it's First, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Your issue in terms of rising cost is mostly to do with concessionary bus passes. Bus companies are supposed to be reimbursed by the government but the amount they're paid doesn't cover the costs, so it has to be recouped by increasing fares.

I'm pg with dc2 and we had to get a specific buggy to fit into the car, I don't drive so when DP will be at work I'll be getting the bus. I can't fold the buggy down myself so wouldn't be able to fold it for going on a bus. My dc1 (5yrs old) also has a disability so wouldn't be able to walk a big distance if we got off the bus and walked and he also wouldn't be able to cope with waiting for another bus as it would be 40 minutes until the next one and his routine is important (ASD).

However, the spaces on the bus are for wheelchairs, and I wouldn't ever dream of expecting priority over someone with a wheelchair so have already been looking for a lightweight, foldable buggy specifically for me using public transport when ds1 is at school. I also plan on using online shopping if needed, will try and have appointments during school hours and have been looking at a buggy board type adaption for DS if we do have to walk. I'm astounded that there are people who would refuse to move for someone using a wheelchair. If you plan on using public transport with a young baby you have to take into account the fact that you may be asked to move or fold up your buggy.

Maybe they've had loads of shopping to do (and if you don't have a car the shopping has to be transported somehow!), they're exhausted or not feeling well, maybe they've got to get somewhere within a given time-frame, it's dark and they don't want to risk their personal safety.

My dd intends to be a lecturer in Literature. She uses a wheelchair. Which bit of the above statement doesn't apply to her. Which bit justifies leaving her in a vulnerable position?

As a wheelchair user who used to rely solely on public transport, I used to use the bus for a reason. Sometimes I had loads of shopping to do, I was exhausted or not feeling well (often, given my disability) maybe I had to get somewhere within a given time-frame (hospital appointments being just one example), it's dark and I don't want to risk my personal safety.

Also sometimes it was because I was denied access to other forms of public transport ( the tube and many overland trains remain inaccessible). Taxi drivers have also refused to pick me up, or don't see me. Once I was out at night and some idiot had smashed a glass on the pavement, which went into my wheel and then into my hand, which meant I was unable to push myself. Thank fuck for the kindness of strangers that night.

And I've been sat at the bus stop in the rain watching a bus drive off without me, even though the wheelchair space was empty, because he didn't know how to use the ramp. Once it happened when I was on a first date, my date got on at the front and the driver just drove off, despite my date shouting at him to stop and let me on.

But, collapsing your buggy is "the last thing you feel like doing", so I should just suck it up?

Having a child is a lifestyle choice though. You really can just choose not have any, if you think the inconvenience of transporting them around is going to be unacceptable to you. It is really not comparable with having a severe disability.

And yes I do rely uniquely on public transport (and walking!) to get around, as I'm unable to drive (which in itself makes me a nuisance according to some one here, but that's the way it is). I use public transport every day, have done for most of my adult life. I've often been tired or in a rush, or occasionally been not feeling well. I still wouldn't dream of blocking the wheelchair space if someone needed it .

I would love to know how you can fold a powered wheelchair.....pendant emotion

I am merely trying to put forward the point that most parents probably wouldn't even get a bus if it wasn't a case of "needs must" just because of just such issues

And what makes you think disabled people travel on buses just for the hell of it? I hate catching buses, it's difficult to maneuvre my chair on, even when the ramp does work, that bloody beeping noise that accompanies the ramp moving, people staring and tutting because it takes a few minutes to let me on, having to ask people to move pretty much every fucking time I get on the bus, because I travel during rush hour, because I have a job to get to, just like they do.

I can see what this thread started with "this old chestnut".

I didn't intend to offend anyone but just playing devil's advocate and suggesting why some parents may not play ball once on a bus. If parents with buggies were used to regularly having to give up their 'borrowed' space in the wheelchair space area, they might be more habituated to doing the right thing. But as other posters have commented, it's not necessarily a regular occurrence that wheel-chairs users do use public transport (and this thread might suggest why) and although parents with buggies should always be mindful of such an eventuality, I'm sure for many it's not something they think about.

No-one group should be disadvantaged at the expense of any other group IMHO. It is just as valid that a parent (but particularly mothers) can live their life as and when they want to do things as for an elderly person or someone in a wheelchair. And vice versa.

But you are right that it's an issue of manners and good citizenship too. But in some places that is hard to come by. As I've already said some parents might be keener on collapsing buggies if they knew that they could hand over their DC(s) to a friendly fellow passenger whilst they did so. But then you are relying on the manners not only of the parent but also of the other passengers.

You all seem to consider that all parents are equally capable and can multi-task on buses. You may be some of these parents but not all are and I've seen plenty floundering trying to keep older DCs under control, hold onto babies on lurching buses, watch their handbags etc....

If I have a gripe it's for those of us who are 'older' and have shopping trolleys (I don't but I've seen some who do) and I've often thought about taking the RailAir bus link from Heathrow to Reading and then a local bus home. However, I have been daunted by the thought of two large suitcases, a wheeled cabin case and a handbag holdall to get the lot onto a bus and into a space. Would I have to get the lot off the bus for a wheelchair user?

You need to ask which is a higher priority, a wheelchair user or a load of luggage? Seriously?

Not a parent or wheelchair user, but I remember when I used to commute you'd be guaranteed to have one of those rotten days every so often. You know the ones I mean - a train would break down / the bus wouldn't show up / you'd end up with your face shoved in someone's sweaty armpits. The days you'd get in an hour after you intended, absolutely shattered and good for not much more than sitting on the sofa with a glass of wine. I imagine being on a bus with a child and having to get off / fold the buggy when you're already wrecked would probably be one of those rotten days.

But it's one day. A good night's sleep and it's over and you're ready to face tomorrow.

I reckon if you're a wheelchair user then there must be a pretty high chance that every day you need to use public transport will be like that. Which of course may mean every day fullstop - people have to, shock horror, get to work!

gazzalw I hope if you ever have to fold your buggy for a wheelchair user, you will do so. Afterall, it will inconvenience you, but think of the wheelchair user who likely will be having the same fight with the next generation of buggy users a few years down the line when you're well passed the buggy stage.

gazza, you appear to be imagining that parents and wheelchair users have equal rights of some kind. They don't. The spaces are wheelchair spaces. Parents managed before they existed and can manage perfectly well without them - maybe with some inconvenience but hey ho, parenting involves a lot of inconvenience. A little inconvenience to a parent. v. complete inability to get anywhere for a wheelchair user - you do the maths.