Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

Oh let's not do the sniping at multiple mummies thing again. I don't see anyone has equated it to being disabled here, unless I'm reading Offred's comment about back problems wrong (I could be..).

Offered, why do we need specified pram spaces? IMHO if you were going to have two spaces would be better if both for wheelchair users. I have friends who are married with a DC (4months, in a sling) both DPs use Wheelchairs and cannot travel together on PT, Taxis from where the live to town cost £50, v rural area. Bus about £4.80. Both wfh.

So bus companies put more effort into their drivers training, and need to be more sympathetic about delays due to access. All of that is achievable, and maybe this lawsuit will go some way to encouraging that. And they wont need to throw anyone off a bus, if people understood that they do not have priority. If people were aware that they may have to get off the bus, they would probably be more inclined to do it. At the minute, because it is so unclear to people, they act like it's the biggest offence in the world to be asked to relinquish a space to the priority user. If you were told as soon as you got on, and there were clear signs, that you may have to leave the bus if you can't be accommodated at the same time as a wheelchair user, you could hardly then act surprised and indignant when it happens.

So people with disabilities are entitled for making use of adaptations which attempt to make their lives easier (yet still not as easy as someone without disability) then?

And why would the bus company suggest it spends money on its fleet when it can make a completely unworkable and unenforceable suggestion that doesn't have to cost them anything...

Its not just bus companies that should be pursued on this matter - West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive who oversee all bus and train companies that run within West Yorkshire, state quite clearly in their leaflet about Easy Access Buses that drivers cannot insist that people in priority seats (which are for the elderly, the disabled and parents with young children, according to the stickers) and wheelchair spaces vacate them here. I think its pretty lame of them but I do get why some drivers might not want to as some of the mums I've seen getting on buses are quite aggressive, shoving to the front of the queue and shouting at other passengers.

We have only really had a large number of easy access buses for the last 4 years or so on Arriva Yorkshire services - when my eldest two (now 6 and 5) were babies I had to get them out of the double and fold it. Old ladies were only too happy to hold them or dd2 went in the sling and ds1 was sat on a seat waiting for me to sit down. When I only had ds1 I had a small stroller suitable from birth for bus journeys and a hulking pram/pushchair combo for walking. It isn't rocket science to think about your needs if you are regularly using public transport. When ds2 was born I travelled a lot less on buses as 3 under 3 was difficult to cope with - if I did use a bus, I made sure it was outside of busy times and had a few different options to choose from service-wise.

With regard to modifying buses - would be a great idea if the majority of buses were double deckers but they're not and having pushchair AND wheelchair spaces would mean less space for people without either to travel. It won't happen.

Why should anyone have to get off the bus though? As I've said that is fine if you live in a town, not so much if you live in somewhere like north Wales...

I'm only addressing one person who feels that the number of children she has disables her, not multiples in general.

Unfortunately Mary, Offered is real.

You can't fit two wheelchair spaces but you can fit one wheelchair and one pram space onto buses. It isn't an option to have two wheelchair spaces.

Do explain that, if a buggy can fit in a wheelchair space. Got much experience of the dimensions of, and variety of chairs have you?

Because when it comes down to it - that space is for wheelchairs. If there is no other possible space for your pram, then you can't be on the bus. I imagine in most cases there is a way to squeeze a folded up buggy somewhere and for everyone to stay onboard. But the crux of it is that you wouldn't have been able to board the bus if there was already a wheelchair user on board. And since they have priority over that space, you have to move. Where you move to is your choice. You ask for help, fold and squeeze yourself in, or you get off and wait for the next bus.

No, I am simply saying there is a perfectly reasonable solution to better protect wheelchair access and also make it practically enforceable. It may cost the bus company a bit of money but I think it is better than making things extra hard for families using buses. The only advantage in these proposals is that they are punitive on pram users, that I believe is the aim of some posters on this thread at least who have got it into their heads that people with prams never have need of a reliable bus.

Why should anyone have to get off the bus though?

They don't have to. They have the option of folding. They have a choice.

One would hope not Mary.

We got 2 wheelchairs on a bendy bus once. Only cos DS2's junior one is narrow. DD was in a sling back ten when she was smaller. Couldn't travel together as a family nowadays.

And why won't two WCs fit again Maharichi Offered?

Well Glitter there's no more bendy buses, so we're all doomed to hypothermia and zombie cow attacks.

That's Boris' fault. Bloody great for wheelchairs were bendy buses.

I explained pages ago Mary. We already have pushchair spaces. If there is no room people can't get on with pushchairs and the bus either drives past or stops to say you can't get on and tell you when the next bus is.

The wheelchair space is still multi-use but because there is a pram space it doesn't seem to be a problem. If they had pram spaces then bus companies could make the currently multi-use wheelchair space into a dedicated space and could enforce it properly with ticketing anyone who blocked it.