Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

---------

I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

Thank you manic

Ok but that is a different issue, this is about a test case trying to establish new rights for wheelchair access on buses. They are, IMO, short sighted, spiteful and pointless proposals. I the judge ruled that the disability discrimination act should be interpreted as applying to buses in such a way as meant dedicated wheelchair and pram spaces where required then the meaningful change would come instead of having some stupid fight with people with prams where one side seems completely unable to understand the other has needs...

panda I get off the bus. I don't take space if wheelchair gets on. It's not difficult I have said this numerous times. I cannot fold pram or hold baby without help. I can get off bus tho so this is what I do.

No need for the passive aggressive weary sigh. You said no such thing in your initial post. Or in most of your subsequent drip feeding posts. It's only since you appear to have started back pedalling that you say you do this. That's why I find you're position so confusing.

Offerd you are being disablist to assume wheelchair users don't pay to use PT, tbh, I do and I am severely mobility impaired and have been from birth. Nobody is saying families should be banned either, as I said up thread, lots of people with disabilities have families. Which would you prefer? we have to pa over the odds to use taxis, making life overly expensive and difficult re work opportunities, peoples' already stretched tax payments are used to fund PAs/ drivers ( more widely as now only available option if PC is required) or lastly, single disabled people, without children should sit at home in a darkened room, so as not to put you or the rest of the Mothers out.

Pick your potato, as my DM would say.

They aren't new rights, Offerd. They are trying to get this bus company to abide by what is already law.

Mary, maybe instead of throwing insults at me despite not actually reading or understanding my posts you could read and understand them and produce a counter argument if you disagree.

Why exactly is it unreasonable to say that bus companies should have a dedicated wheelchair space where they had a power to ticket ANYONE who blocked it for any reason other than being in a wheelchair and in order to make that work in reality they need to have pram spaces because you can't guarantee protected groups won't be badly affected by the proposals or people will observe them if they are unfair?

Yes, I am arguing that on every bus there should be a space that is a dedicated as opposed to a multi-use wheelchair space AND a multi-use pram space. Because if you try to make a profit making company choose between fare paying passengers who regularly use the bus and non-fare paying ones who occasionally use the bus they will have more sympathy with fare paying ones.

Who are these non-fare paying occasional bus users you're referring to?

Oh and the DDA no longer applies, is the EA now

I always imagined it was the buggies rather than adult passengers in wheelchairs that were 'non-fare-payers' taking up space if it comes to that, Offred. Did I get that bit wrong?

But this wont adversely affect wheelchair users, because regardless of the bus companies own rules about whether or not prams can come on, they legally have to provide access for someone in a wheelchair. It would affect people who use a wheelchair and a pram, obviously. But the wheelchair users rights are protected by law.

In my initial post I explained my situation and asked what people would do in my position. The response was buy a cheaper folding pram or that my health issues were not real issues etc etc.

It's funny how some posters gave the upmost sympathy with those who's problems are visably but for people with invisible issues that must be lying or entitled or just need to man up as in the old days you had to fold pram etc.

The intention wa not to drip feed at all I was responding to questions posed and allegations of faking it etc.

I do get off the bus if I need to and I'm not back pedalling at all I'm mearly pointing out that folding your pram is not the magical answer to everything.

I really don't see why I'm having to justify myself to this level

I'm glad you noticed it too Panda. Initially it was just being too skint and unwilling to fold a 4x4 of a pushchair.
It's funny, my disability is fairly severe and i can fold my dds stroller one handed while sitting on my stroller. I often do it because her brother who pushes her can't figure out how it collapses. But i couldn't get off the bus and stand for 10 mns waiting for the next one.
When my kids travel with me on the bus they have no problem getting on, getting the shopping on and folding the stroller (dd) or asking me to help (ds2).
Surely if you had invisible disabilities you'd turn to another passenger and say "can you fold my stroller for me?" Rather than passive aggressively getting off to wait for the next bus?

Yes, your posts are irrelevant I am not saying wheelchairs shouldn't be able to use buses or the rights are new. I'm saying these proposals, which DO say families should be banned from buses, because that is the same as banning prams, are unnecessarily punitive to families and won't improve things for wheelchair users so what is the point? What is wrong with interpreting the legislation to mean there has to be a dedicated space for wheelchairs and a multi-use pram/mobility/seating/standing area?

My scooter, not stroller!

My question exactly Panda, however, we must remember that to a lot of narrow minded people, 'the disabled' (as they call us) are a bunch of charity cases who can't and don't want to pay for anything!

I'm suggesting buses make easy modifications to existing fleets in order to comply with existing legislation Mary, so you haven't countered my arguments, you have countered points I haven't made.

panda

Try a big standered umbrella one TESCO do one for less than £20 but I'm not sure if its lay flat

but the zeta vooom on amazon is suitable from birth its also got slightly higher handles than most that for me make it easier to use like a frame ( if that makes sense) and the handles are upright not slanted so less chance of me going arse over when using it like a frame.

The only down side is its so light that any bags will unbalance it if you are also leaning on it, but its got a hood pocket that fits a few nappies a full size pack of wipes as well as car keys and a large purse so you don't need to hang a changing bag.

The mesh basket is impossible to get to unless the baby is older and sat up but you can get side bags as well if you need. It also is dirt cheap comes in loads of different colours and comes complete with rain cover ( easy to fit when my hands don't work) and cosy toes, its the only one my mother ( has ms) can also use with no probs as well as me when my mobility is limited but not limited enough to need my wheelchair. Before I got it I messaged the company saying I was unsure if I could manage it without seeing it due to mobility issues,they offered me an assurance that if when delivered I couldn't they would refund.

Both my mother and i can fold it easily and lift it when empty HTH.

Rights can be protected by law till the cows(!) come home but if they don't work then they won't be enforced. That really is what this whole thing is about.

Prams and buggies are different, no? IME buggies are smaller, can be folded and are not discussed above. So there is no exclusion so far as I see. With tiny babies who cannot sit in a buggy, a papoose or sling solves the issue for the majority.

offred

Many people have pointed out (myself included) that some buses already have pram spaces and wheelchair spaces and trouble still arises. The issue is with the drivers lack of authority and power or willingness to enforce those spaces being used as they should be not with the spaces themselves physically existing. Your magical spaces will be no good without the driver being able to enforce the rules, the same rules which they should be enforcing now for wheelchair users but don't seem to. Surely the issue to be working on is the company and the drivers having the power to give wheelchair users the priority they should legally have?

Well people who use pushchairs aren't a protected group, so there is no requirement at all for buses to take extra measures to accommodate them. They don't need to make modifications because they already comply with the law, it's parents with prams who are making it difficult for the companies to enforce this compliance.

And banning prams does not mean banning families. There are other ways of transporting babies and toddlers. Not to mention that having a 'prams must always be folded' rule just means that people would have to give a bit of thought to their choice of pram and their journeys. It doesn't mean it's impossible.