Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

If your referring to my complications pag they are genuine and as stated I will happily leave a bus to make space it's jus not possible for me to fold pram that doesn't make me an entitled git or anything like that....

If not aimed at me then ignore!

Offred are you then arguing that the wheelchair space should be enforced (as described in the OP) but only as long as there is a separate dedicated space for pushchairs? Or a dedicated space for people with hidden disabilities or children in standard prams who are disabled? I don't really understand what you want?

offred just wants everyone to agree that they are a genius and have been right all along (sorry, not happening)

I think off is saying space for both but I could be wrong

You may be right FairyJen.
Certainly some pram user have a capacity for lame arse, entitled, whiney excuses that should make complaining second nature.

Although I don't see how the bus companies will have won. If things stay the same the only people who have won are the selfish fuckers to idle to fold up their buggies.

I wish I had mobility issues that meant I could push a buggy and walk around town pushing it. Instead I just have the unimportant second class kind that means I am IMMOBILE unless in a wheeled chair or scooter. Of course it's more important for you to have the WHEELCHAIR space on the bus though Fairyjen.

X-posted.

I am not aiming it at anyone. Just those who won't fold up their buggy because its difficult rather than actually can't.

I mean win in terms of getting away with disabling behaviour without ( most likely) having to apologise, compensate or explain their actions

If anyone wants to argue for space for both that's great but has fuck all to do with how to deal with someone using a wheelchair tomorrow.

And I hope anyone arguing for designated buggy spaces is actually doing that in real life. Because otherwise they are a stuffed shirt tbh.

Wind your neck in zeeboo I never said that. I said out of the options listed in op 4 would be preferable to me rather than folding or banning pushchairs. I have said several times I would get off the bus

I suspect the bus companies just wish people would simply adhere to a perfectly sensible system.

I think the downstairs of all buses need to be redesigned tbh. And if you can go upstairs you should. I have an arrythmic heart condition and on occasion have been in a real state on the bus but because I look ok no one ever lets me sit.( I am not comparing myself to wc users btw) I have been gasping for breath and no one ever let me sit. This is about more than disablism it is about how we are as a society and have a real I'm alright jack attitude. Wheelchairs and prams should have more space and better designed. Until then fold the buggies seems logical never mind common decency!

I fear pag that this will only happen of drivers actually enforce it. I think if left to human nature as such the situation will continue as it is

Eh? Is this the twighlight zone? Aren't you one of the people with a massive pram who can't possibly manage putting it down/getting a lighter one/holding a baby/other excuses ad naseum?

Maybe I'm sick of 'winding my neck in' because I'm the disabled one and I'm supposed to just be meek and not fight for my right to use public transport.
I have little patience with anyone who pretends they can't rustle up £20 for a cheap umbrella stroller and then drip feeds health issues that are the alleged reason for not being able to fold a buggy.

are there really that many parents who actually can't fold?
are they all disabled?
on the buses here there are loads of buggy and one wheelchair space.
so I doubt if every mum/carer is unble to fold.

ProudAS - what does that have to do with the wheelchair space?

So are you saying I'm lying zeeboo ?

panda I get off the bus. I don't take space if wheelchair gets on. It's not difficult I have said this numerous times. I cannot fold pram or hold baby without help. I can get off bus tho so this is what I do.

It's fair enough, Jen. You'd do the right thing and that's what matters.

I don't see what's unreasonable about having separate designated areas for wheelchairs and buggies (which I think our local buses do although I hardly ever use them due to their being expensive, infrequent and my being unable to stand if they are crowded).

As for hidden disabilities understanding is the key and lets remember (and remind bus companies) that the DDA applies just as much to them as to mobility problems. If a toddler has to remain in a buggy due to their older sibling having an ASD and needing extra attention from the parent then the bus company must by law take reasonable steps to accommodate that.

If everyone was prepared to ask for and give help we wouldn't need this debate in the first place. However, when I did use them I would always offer to help parents with prams get on and off (this was before most buses had designated areas for them) and although they seldom asked for help they would accept my offer more often than not. I also used to offer my seat (not only to those whose inability to stand was obvious) prior to having problems with standing myself.

BTW - how would regular bus travellers on this forum feel about allowing someone in my position to sit down if I asked? My back problem is not obvious but I would mention it when relevant.

If you asked, Proudas, then I'd get up and give you my seat.

ProudAS

I and at least one other poster have already posted that we would happily let you sit down.

Yes, I am arguing that on every bus there should be a space that is a dedicated as opposed to a multi-use wheelchair space AND a multi-use pram space. Because if you try to make a profit making company choose between fare paying passengers who regularly use the bus and non-fare paying ones who occasionally use the bus they will have more sympathy with fare paying ones. Most of these proposals are dependent on good bus service and urban areas where people are less dependent on buses. Also they make the inaccurate generalisation that pushchair=no additional needs. I am not sure drivers will be able to implement any of them apart from a blanket ban which would simply increase the frustration of wheelchair users and pram users alike without any practical solution as I suspect people with prams will still get on, people without wheelchairs will still sit in them and put luggage in them because they are not dedicated spaces. Dedicated wheelchair spaces, pram spaces and luggage racks (as we have) and bus companies that apply to make a bye law making it a ticketable offence to leave anything in the space dedicated for wheelchairs should completely solve the problem and make buses more accessible for wheelchairs without punishing all pram pushers because of the perceived actions of some.

But yes, I'm being disablist because I don't agree that families should be banned from buses...

People with prams sitting in them being told to fold and move would be a good start. While we are waiting for these new buses.