Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

I haven't read the whole thread because I'm assuming that 500+ posts means that someone is arguing that they shouldn't have to give way. And I don't have the heart to type the same old post about the simple numbers of buggies as opposed to wheelchairs, meaning that wheelchair users have to be given priority to avoid situations where they can simply never board a bus.

But have people realised the real implications of the solicitor's post? He's not asking for back-up from pram users. He's not giving them an opportunity to argue against the priority. If he was doing that then one of the proposed solutions would actually say so. The list of solutions are ALL in favour of wheelchair users, so all that is being offered is an opportunity to help the company reach agreement without going to court. If pram users are replying to the solicitor in a way that suggests that parents, en masse, are not willing to support or comply with any sort of reasonable approach, then it will be a clear indication to the company that the only way to protect themselves against further criticism will be to ban prams or unfolded prams.

So the people arguing for not having to give way are quite possibly arguing their way into a blanket ban on unfolded prams.

Enjoy the consequences of that.

Threesocks - I'm not talking about prams have priority in wheelchair spaces. I am talking about how best to solve the problem of blocked wheelchair spaces.

Where I live it doesn't happen because the driver doesn't let prams on if there is no room in the pram space and people accept this. Do you think people would accept and drivers would enforce not allowing prams on at all, waiting for folding enforcing all unnecessary folding.

My friend has a Phil&teds btw not a sn buggy, her dc are still disabled.

Repeatedly telling me I am arguing for prams not having to give way in the disabled space/prams having priority in the disabled space is an irrelevant interpretation of what I'm saying.

It's funny. I used to have considerable sympathy for people trying to get prams on buses - I'm not one of them as I use a sling, not least because I can't be arsed with trying to navigate life with a pram.

But after all the posts I have read over the last couple years from people trying to convince others that their need is just as great, I have actually pretty much stopped giving a shit about anyone needing to get a buggy on a bus, save for those with temporary or permanent disabilities.

I am saying in practice and in reality having a pram space allows drivers to prioritise wheelchair users in a way which works and is reliable and which doesn't force disabled/ill/vulnerable parents with prams or with disabled children in prams to be disadvantaged.

So what are you saying then Offred!

Because all I am hearing is that they should make new buses, the proposals are pramist and something patronising about invisible SN that I still don't quite get.

(Or humiliated) and these proposals cause clear problems, every single one of them for no real reason when other things would solve the problem better.

Sorry. That hold have been a ? Not a !

The ! Makes me look way more interested than I actually am

(shit stupid dog, shit)

So they shoud make new buses. That's your plan?

I wouldn't dream of taking a disabled space with my buggy. I do think, as others have said, there needs to be more empathy in general though. When I was in my early twenties I used to hold babies and/or shopping for people whilst they collapsed prams/buggies, but I can imagine many people these days would just watch a mother struggle rather than help. I gave up my seat for anyone I thought needed it more than me on the bus too. Sadly, different times, although I am in my mid-thirties and I still would do the above.

Not read whole thread so apologies if any repeats!

I have mobility issues from emcs ds is now 7 months and very heavy ( for me anyway) we have a quinny buzz 3 and to fold it down you have to remove the seat attachment how could I carry the base, chair, ds and shopping on the bus? There should be more provision for pushchaairs rather than just sayin fold or get off as its not always that simple.

Get a small, light-weight easily foldable buggy.

Life is rarely simple. Try asking a person in a wheelchair to fold it.

There is no comparison to your possible slight inconvenience and a disabled person's lifelong struggle.

Yes Makeitlarge. Sometimes they refuse. It's a large problem which is why the proposals are being floated.

You would think it was common sense but apparently..

get a smaller pram then. You can't you your choice of a big heavy pram as an excuse not to be considerate.

fairyjen its completely simple. Buy a cheap umbrella stroller for the bus like every other reasonable able parent does.

Or bus company simply modified their existing buses in order to comply fully with disability legislation. On accessible space on a bus can be assumed to be a multi-use space and often still disabled spaces are multi-use spaces, yes I think bus companies should modify their buses to make a dedicated disabled space which cannot be used by prams/luggage/ordinary people and that requires the existence of a pram space in practice.

Genuine question FairyJen. If you knew you were going to need the bus why did you choose such an impractical pushchair?

Whatever the reason is irrelevant to the fact that wheelchairs take priority.

I'm interested in how bus drivers are meant to prioritise wheelchair users. How much time is there spare in the timetable for taking down and assessing medical details? Oh, and life stories, so we can all know whose journey is really necessary.

*one accessible space

Do mums actually refuse to fold their prams when asked to by someone needing the space for a wheelchair?

Apparently - yes.

I've experienced moaning and very slow moving as if suddenly another option would suddenly become available or we?d suddenly realise we didn't need that bus. Bus drivers ususally wait with wheel chairs are in properly IME.

I've only seen it with old ladies shopping trollies - driver soon had that sorted.

Mind you they don't need cattle prods round here - the bus just doesn't move. DH was in nearby city rough bit and passenger refused to move - driver phoned depo got everyone else off bus and left bus doors open. After five minutes guy got off and wondered away and everyone got back on and continued their journey.

So you will be perfectly happy with the subsequent hike in bus travel prices, as less people are able to use the bus and bus company has to pay for expensive modifications to its entire fleet?