Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

But it is the main reason.

I remember Dawndonna's DD's post from when it was originally posted. So bloody sad. And so fucking unnecessary.

Just wanted to add that, in Sydney, you HAVE to fold your buggy before getting on a bus. You don't fold, you don't get on. It's awkward, especially if you have a toddler who can't quite make the step (they're not really wheelchair-friendly either) but it's the way it works.

I think that

1. Prohibit prams on board - NO - ridiculous
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus. Well I have to put up with it but I admit I wouldn't wish it on anyone else
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board. ABSOLUTELY
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down. Well, only if there is a reasonable time gap before the next bus can be expected
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded. See below
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space. Harsh, along the lines of keeping the whole class in until someone owns up to throwing the rubber across the room, and a bit bullying but depends on the passenger involved
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down. See below

It might be a good idea to stop selling buggies that cannot be folded down, if some people can't work out that they're a PITA on buses. This does not apply to buggies for disabled children and they should have the same priority as wheelchair users, since in effect that's what they are.

Overall they should have more spaces for wheelchairs; and I think it probably is a good idea to have a dedicated space for pushchairs as well, to save quibbling. And still retain some bloody space for luggage! Of course this would probably also mean more buses... which would probably be a good thing.

But as it's blatantly obvious that the Govt just wants all disabled people to disappear and stop bothering non-disabled people - preferably die out so they're not using up valuable resources/housing/transport etc. - I wouldn't anticipate anything really beneficial to people with disabilities coming through the system. :(

Is it the main reason or is it the perceived reason given it is perfectly possible my friend with three out of four children with special needs is someone people have looked at and decided she is selfish and entitled.

I think you're getting a kick out of taking a disablist position and arguing the toss Offred. You said yourself earlier in the thread that you're just 'playing devil's advocate'. Seems to me you're entertaining yourself at the expense of disabled people who actually have to live the reality of this and you're getting some twisted pleasure out of rubbing their faces in it. :(

Thumbwitch - what happens with parents travelling with 2 non-mobile children (multiples or close in age)?

Yes but she isn't and most of the perpetrators are perfectly able - just not willing.

In most cases buggies blocking spaces could be folded. Or they could leave the bus. But they don't. They are gits.

That's a disgusting accusation panda. I'm not arguing about prams having priority I am disagreeing with these proposals which don't solve the problem of blocked spaces particularly well and in some cases where bus drivers took sympathy with prams would simply make the problem a hidden one and have consequences which seem to be entirely unnecessary for families... Entirely unnecessary when the ends could be achieved in a vastly more effective way.

Are you asking me what happens in Sydney? I don't know, to be fair - I live a fair way outside Sydney so have only had to use the bus in the city a few times, and the issue hasn't arisen (I only had 1 DS at the time). The buggy would still have to be folded (there's a sign at the bus stop telling you so, iirc) so probably someone would have to help the parent, or they would just not be able to use the bus, I really don't know.

Digusting, but an accurate assessment based on posts in this thread.

I wish that the wheelchair space was kept for just that. a buggy (unless sn) is not a wheelchair.
the idea that it is so hard to fold is rubbish,
most people just can't be arsed.

Oh sorry Thumbwitch, yes I meant in Sydney - I got the wrong impression you did it regularly. My one experience of Aus was that the transport workers were pretty friendly and helpful so I guess they're more likely to assist you than shout at you.

No I think how do you determine need simply by looking at someone? That the situation could be tackled in many ways other than those proposals. The perception that everyone with a pram can fold or is able bodied is simply incorrect. That is all:

It isn't that the people on this thread are discussing this case, it is that the proposals made in the case are entirely about prams.

And that's because the situation is predominately cased by prams

In practice, as things are here, it is much easier to keep the disabled space dedicated for wheelchairs if the driver can let prams on. If the driver has to argue with prams about the bus then the really entitled or sometimes the really needy will be let on anyway. Our system works fine. The driver doesn't let prams go in the disabled space unless they know they will have to get off for a wheelchair/fold up, I still don't see why proposing to force arriva/all buses to have both pram and wheelchair spaces so that the wheelchair space can be dedicated for wheelchair use isn't the solution that will actually achieve the best results for disabled people accessing buses without punishing families because some wheelchair users believe they were not entitled to be in the space (they may well have been but you don't actually know).

Maryz.
My dog won't accept the simple premis that he should shit in the appropriate place and not wherever he fancies.

I can't decide if he is monstrously thick, being deliberately obtuse or just goading.
It's difficult to determine. But whatever the reason he is just spreading shite.

How do any of you know people with prams haven't got disabilities/needs/illnesses/whatever. You can't tell just by looking and no-one has studied what causes more of a problem and why, it is simply prejudice based on perceptions and anecdotes.

BECAUSE THE SAME WILL HAPPEN AGAIN!

It'll start bit by bit with people using the wheelchair space when the pram space is full "just until a wheelchair gets on!" and eventually, it will become normal to use it when the pram space is full. And THEN the refusal to fold will start again.

I see this happen on our buses. The drivers are probably terrified to say anything in case of violence, abuse or being in trouble if their bus is late.

What really needs to happen is for bus drivers to be given authority or ability to tell people who won't fold to get off the bus without risking their safety or job.

Because if it looks like a horse, sounds like a horse and neighs like a horse it probably isn't a zebra in disguise.

Sometimes it may be a child with disabilities. But more often than not it is a selfish arse.

You take on arriva Offred. Let us know how you get on.

In the meantime people should fold the buggy up.

Hmmm. A cattle prod...

A WHEELCHAIR SPACE SHOULD BE JUST FOR THAT A WHEELCHAIR(SN BUGGYS ARE WHEELCHAIRS)