Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

I don't think you understand what becoming case law means.

It means that it can be used to enforce changes in other areas IF RELEVANT. Some of those proposals are clearly not relevant to your style of bus. Others would be.

Very few buses have the space to have pram spaces aswell as disabled spaces. Bus companies don't want to reduce the number of seats on a bus by doing this (and understandably)

Prams can use the space when it's not needed but when a disabled person needs the space they get priority.

I'm a new mum, and hold my hands up, when looking at prams, I didn't consider how easy it would be to fold it up when out and about. (it comes apart as 2 separate pieces, so not really practical.). If I was on a bus, and a wheel chair user got in, I would need to get off. And that is not the fault of the person getting on, or the bus company. Its MY fault for not taking this into consideration when I bought my pram. They are wheel chair spaces to be used by someone in a wheel chair. End of.

Even our tiny mini bus style buses have both a pram and a wheelchair space.

I still fail to see why any of these are a good solution to the problem of blocked wheelchair spaces.

Bus companies adjust practices to avoid possibility of being sued you can't know how these proposals would affect the rest of bus provision.

But 3, 4, 6 and 7 are only seeking to do that - enforce the rule that the wheelchair space is a priority space for people with wheelchairs. No one on this thread has said that it is reasonable for buses to ban prams, or ban prams that don't fold. The suggestion of having specific pram spaces might work on some buses too.

And please give up the bit about all buses outside of London being unreliable and shit. There are actually many cities and towns and villages outside of London, with great public transport. I used to live in a place that had one bus a day to the local town, and I know that is the case in some places, but the attitude that everywhere outside of London is some hideous, provincial, deprived of transport hell-hole is a bit annoying.

a wheelchair/sn buggy should always have priority, bus companies should enforce this.
parents have options, if you are in a wheelchair/disabled/ or have a child in a sn buggy, you have no options.
saying that disabled people should get taxi's or use dial a ride is disablist.

I think these are all perfectly reasonable suggestions.

But then, when I first had my DD, there were NO wheelchair spaces on buses, and prams ALWAYS had to be folded.

AND I have had my DS2 in a Wheelchair and needed the space for it.

Yes, I DO use the disabled space with DS3's pram - but I am disabled myself and cannot fold his pram.

I have a disabled bus pass myself - but if a wheelchair user needed to board the bus, I DO ALWAYS get off the bus and wait for the next one.

Because having had DS2 in a Wheelchair, I KNOW how frustrating it is to be unable to board a bus because a buggy user won't fold up or get off the bus for a wheelchair.

And as for the taxi tokens - my council gives you just 12 for the entire year, which means in reality just SIX journeys a year.

And you can't have the taxi tokens AND the bus pass - it's one or the other.

The choice between just SIX return journeys a year in taxi's, or unlimited bus journeys after 9am is a no brainer, really.

I don't know of ANY person with disabilities that has chosen the taxi tokens over a bus pass, because it is impractical to limit yourself to just SIX days in town, or hospital visits a year - that's only one every two months.

If, like me, you have multiple complex disabilities, you end up being at the hospital up to 25 times a year...

Why would you choose to have only 6 of those visits covered for transport costs when you could have them ALL covered?!

For many wheelchair users, the bus pass and using the wheelchair spaces are their ONLY viable option. Wheeling a manual wheelchair, or pushing one if you are a Carer, is not possible long distance due to the strain on your arm joints.

People with prams have a multitude if other options - fold up their pram, hat off the bus and wait for the next one (I allow extra journey time specifically so that I CAN do this if a wheelchair user needs to use the space, as there are many varied reasons why I can't fold and take my DS3 out of the pram), they could get off and walk to their destination - pushing a pram with a 2 stone toddler in it is far less taxing than pushing a manual wheelchair with a 12 stone adult in...

The pram user has option that the wheelchair user doesn't.

Which is why, despite being a pram user that has physical disabilities themselves, and their DC ALSO has disabilities, I feel that these recommendations are correct and proper.

THEY ARE WHEELCHAIR SPACES FIRST AND FOREMOST, AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH.

(Sorry for Caps, bolding isn't working on the new App, Tech is working on it...)

PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES CAMPAIGNED LONG AND HARD FOR THESE SPACES, I WAS ONE OF THEM, AND WHILE PEOPLE WITH PRAMS GETTING TO USE THEM IS NICE, IT IS NOT NECESSARY IN THE SAME WAY AS IT IS FOR THOSE IN WHEELCHAIRS.

That's why I feel that these recommendations are right, proper and just.

The only inconveniences I can see for the pram user is that they will either have to be prepared to fold their pram, and to allow extra journey time to allow themselves time to get off and wait for the next bus if a wheelchair user needs to board and they cannot or do not want to fold their pram.

There ARE people that allow extra journey time for that reason - I am one of them. If I can allow the extra journey time when I have disabilities myself, AND have DC's with disabilities, then nobody else has any excuse.

People in wheelchairs, and their Carers, ALREADY have to allow extra journey time, in case they come across some selfish bastard who won't fold down their pram or get off and wait for the next bus so that they can board.

Why can't the pram users be expected to do the same?

Then it would be problem solved!

Oh - and the bus drivers CAN'T stop the bus and refuse to move until somebody folds their pram for a wheelchair user to board. The bus company get fined if the buses are running too late!

So it's hardly the actual DRIVER'S fault that that doesn't happen!

But these proposals have to apply nationally. It doesn't matter if some other cities also have good transport.

Since families are not protected and health and safety laws protect drivers it is very likely the way bus companies might choose to ensure they complied with this is to totally ban prams from buses whether or not that is the particular proposal chosen e.g. Because having pram spaces doesn't mean people with prams use the pram rather than disabled space and there is no conductor, they don't want to risk the driver being subjected to abuse or the company being sued if a child gets harmed when they have been kicked off a bus etc. there is nothing to stop companies making their own rules which go above the law set in order to achieve the objective in a cheap and easy way.

Fantastic Post WhatalotofRoses, I am in exactly the same position as your friend, thanks for showing people how much planning things take. FWIW, I don't feel any animosity towards those who use prams on PT, however, it does annoy me when they air their grievances at me. Believe me if I had any choice in the matter, I would not need to use a space, but unfortunately I do and always have/ will have to. It's the spaces on trains that make me rage and peoples disgusting (to me) attitudes that they should have priority with their pushchair/ cases and so on. I pay for and reserve my seat, it has my name on and yet still people abuse me when I ask politely for them to move. Ditto, people who insist on sitting in my PAs seat, even though I need them close by me.

Sorry for the rant, but these threads really grate. One last thing, A LOT of people with disabilities are parents, they understand what it can be like traveling with baby DCs, I have, WANU. Please can we have no more of this issue, it's so boring and offensive.

This thread has made me cry and that's a rare thing for me. I am a disabled scooter user who commutes to work by bus. I have a scooter permit from Stagecoach that says I am allowed to travel and still I've been late for work, left in the rain, had humiliating arguments with drivers and passengers with buggies (it is ALWAYS buggy users. The elderly and other less disabled people always go out of their way to help me)
I knew there were arseholes out there and I encounter them often but to see them here justifying their behaviour and coming out with the disablest crap they are is just a step too far. I already don't use the bus on my days off because the struggle is too much and I'd rather get wet/cold/risk injury/ worsen my condition by traveling long distances on my scooter that face a buggy user tutting and rolling their eyes at me because they can't be bothered to fold their buggies.
I absolutely can't believe that I should be forced to book a space on a bus?? So the pushchair users can travel whenever they like but because I'm disabled I can't make a spur of the moment to have a lie in and take a later bus to work, or stay late and use a later one home or go home sick half way through the day because I am a cripple and I should just do what other people want me to do and sit around waiting for the able bodied to dictate to me what I can and cannot do and when I should do it.
I am a mother of 4, I work 20 hours a week, I claim no benefits (but do have a blue badge and bus pass) but I still don't have the right to use the local public transport. Thanks Mumsnetters. Thanks a bloody bunch.

Some facts. In the 90's when I was able bodied I lived in a rural area with coaches not busses. I managed to get on with a foldable buggy, toddler, baby and a weeks shopping.

You don't NEED a 'storage area' for your precious buggy, almost all pushchairs will fit in a seat space between seat and the one in front or on the seat if the wheels are clean.

Non foldable prams have never been allowed on busses anyway. I rang a bus company and asked once if I could take my carriage pram on the bus and was told no, the pushchair accessibility favour on busses was only for buggies and pushchairs that could be folded.

Isn't is sad that I weep for the 15 year old who posted above not because what she said shocked or surprised me but because it didn't and I knew EXACTLY how she felt.

AND this change would not solve the problem of disabled spaces being blocked because it would still be perfectly fine to block the space with luggage or just by sitting there.

Why not tackle the actual problem? The problem being that wheelchair spaces shouldn't be blocked and the bus companies have a duty to solve problems which lead to them being blocked, by anything, whether it is a mobility walker, shopping bags, luggage, a pram or a load of school children who no longer have a school bus.

No. It is not fine for luggage to block the space or people to sit there. It is already set out in law.

Those that would refuse to move luggage or not move themselves for a wheelchair user are every bit as bad as buggy users who will not fold or move. Why don't they just ban the selfish?

These days there is cctv on buses. On our buses there is also the number to phone for reporting disablist hate crimes (sad sign of the times).

If you can stand up, stand up and be counted. If you can't, then sit and do the same. Speak up if there's someone behaving like a dickhead.

Bus companies are not going to bring in their own rules and ban pushchairs. They would lose money hand over fist.

This case might set a precedent for ensure that bus companies make sure their wheelchair spaces are accessible when needed (by having signs up advising parents about when they can use them etc), but to suggest that this case means that bus companies will go ahead and ban prams is laughable.

This isn't being written into law, it's one case that might change the way bus companies look at their responsibility to provide a service to everyone, and it might change the way the public think about their 'right' to use a wheelchair space. It is not going to mean a big sweeping ban, nationally, on prams on buses.

Since families are not protected and health and safety laws protect drivers it is very likely the way bus companies might choose to ensure they complied with this is to totally ban prams from buses whether or not that is the particular proposal chosen

If a bus company decides the best way forward to ensure the wheelchair space is available for wheelchair users is an outright ban on prams, then that is very unfortunate for responsible users who fold. However the entitled ones who won't because they're too precious/lazy/scared of cows have nobody to blame but themselves. These proposals are a consequence of their behaviour. If you don't like the consequences, take it up with those who refuse to make the wheelchair space available to wheelchairs users. Simples.

But why can't bus companies simply use a pram space and a wheelchair space and enforce the use of those spaces and the luggage rack for luggage? Why do families need to be excluded in order to achieve the aim of making wheelchair spaces more accessible?

And why is this case obsessing about prams specifically rather than obstructions to the space?

Why would a parent with mobility problems and a pram (like me) have an issue with getting off the bus and waiting for the next one so that a wheelchair user can board?

The wheelchair user still gets priority for the wheelchair space?!

I have no issue getting off and waiting for the next bus - I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, Fibromyalgia and Epilepsy, and have a free disability bus pass. So it costs me nothing but time to wait for the next and the next and the next bus.

Even mums with mobility issues and a pram have no problems getting off the bus to free up the wheelchair space for a wheelchair user, after all, it's what the space was intended for.

And I will soon be using a disability pram for DS3 (just waiting for delivery) due to his probable ASD and his dxd Hyperactivity (probable ADHD), and his Hypermobility.

I will STILL get off for a wheelchair user - it is less inconvenient to me to wait for the next three bus es to continue my journey than it is for a wheelchair user who is non mobile and therefore feels the cold more...

Families aren't being excluded. It's a draft proposal.

Idiots should be excluded though. What a wonderful world it would be if there were none and any that were had to go on special courses to turn them into sensible, public spirited people with an ounce of compassion?

Even if they do have a pram space and a wheelchair space that doesn't stop idiots using the wheelchair space and refusing to move.

I find it odd that a disabled person in a wheelchair will propel themselves for miles and miles in horrific weather to a field with zombie cows in order for a bus to stop to allow them on. Of course the bus driver will have to expel poor bleating mother with her children out into the cold harsh countryside to be attacked by cows! What I am trying to say is IF a wheelchair user gets on the bus and a pushchair has to get off it is highly unlikely to be in such a remote place as how would the disabled person have got there in the first place?

AND this change would not solve the problem of disabled spaces being blocked because it would still be perfectly fine to block the space with luggage or just by sitting there.

Are you being delibrately obtuse? Disabled campaigners in real life, disabled people on this thread, parents of disabled children on this thread are all saying the same thing over and over again. Their access is blocked by prams and buggies. Always. Every time. People standing in the wheelchair space move. Every time. Luggage in the wheelchair space is relocated. Every time. Every single one of us have regularly been denied access because of pram users. None of us have been denied access because of luggage. Is that really so complex that it's beyond your understanding?

Sadly, zeeboo is exactly right in my experience. People can be total shits sometimes, and being subjected to lousy attitudes every day soon grinds you down.
As for booking a wheelchair space on buses, train-style - don't want to stray too far off-topic, but that particular system is beyond inadequate and I can't see how it would work when traffic problems can easily mean you had no idea whether you were trying to board your pre-booked journey. And there would very likely still be a buggy in your booked space anyway.

No it isn't beyond my reasoning but it is anecdotal and not the only reason the space is blocked.