Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

It makes sense because of how I outlined it. I think it is perfectly possible for some disabled people to be prejudiced against a group they perceive as in competition with them because you know they are people... Like other people...

Everyone should be allowed to get on the bus and use the wheelchair space, large prams, shopping trolleys, pianos or whatever.
The only rule that actually needs to be in place is that you vacate the space when needed for a wheelchair user, assuming you are not a wheelchair user yourself.
All the energy spent teaching bus drivers about which prams are acceptable or not could be spent devising policies for what to do if someone refuses to move. Other bus passengers also have a big part to play in this.
No need for a sledgehammer (ban all prams) to crack a nut (ignorant people who refuse to defer to wheelchair user).

If it is about the obstruction of disabled spaces then why is the case specifically about prams, making it about prams means other obstructions like luggage and people with legs won't be covered.

I don't think disabled people feel in competition with people using prams in their spaces.
I think they just want them to fold their buggy up.

Yeah, immaterial of whether they can or not. If they can't they want them to get off the bus. Not biased at all.

Fold the pram/pushchair if other people need the space. Is it that hard to grasp?

I don't think that people with disabilities are prejudiced against buggy owners, pram owners, large luggage owners or shopping trolley owners.
I think a large number are unwilling to put up with selfish, entitled behaviour that impacts negatively on their own lives for no good reason.

What is so hard to grasp about wheelchairs not being able to fit in pram spaces? Fold the pram to fit in where? There's no luggage rack but there is a pram space, fold it to make it more dangerous for you and your children in case someone gets on in a wheelchair and doesn't use the pram space they can't fit in?

Did I tell you all about the time I got spat on by a mum with a pram because I was using the disabled space (an disabled with a walking frame) and wouldn't/couldn't vacate it for her monster pram? I think I may have said this before under a previous user name.

Basically I don't use public transport anymore. If I can't get where I need to go by car, I don't go. I stay at home instead. This is solely down to having reached breaking point because of the abuse I've had over the years from people who should bloody well know better.

The hyperbole comments by Offred in this thread leave me feeling a little bit sick. They also illustrate very well why disabled people have to be protected by law, because human decency won't protect us.

How can someone be that unaware to not notice the picture of the wheelchair, the person in the wheelchair and the fact that they are in the one spot in the bus that the wheelchair can fit. Even if they aren't aware that they are supposed to fold for the wheelchair, it takes a selfish selfish person not to do it even if they don't have to.

It is ironic how I'm being accused of not reading the thread but people still insist on telling me I'm making a point I am not...

How about for other people with prams!!!! If you fold yours, more people with prams can fit in that space!

To repeat, I am explaining how these changes would affect our buses which have pram spaces (which can't be used by wheelchairs) and also how in other places which don't have pram spaces families might be affected by being asked to get off the bus. I.e. the rules would affect our buses and would make the modifications of buses to create pram spaces redundant because they would mean people couldn't use them.

If all buses were standardised I.e. required to have both pram and a dedicated space for a wheelchair which could not be blocked by luggage, people or prams then bus travel would be improved for people in wheelchairs.

Why can't people just be a bit more compassionate and treat people in the way they would like to be treated?

Would solve just about everything... in the world.

Why are you rejecting all the proposals just because some of them aren't necessary for the style of bus you have?

Of course they won't become a blueprint for all buses, everywhere, even buses they aren't relevant to, that makes no bloody sense.

It is a discussion about how to make sure wheelchair spaces are accessible to wheelchair uses, your buggy spaces are not a part of the debate at all!

Anyone who gets any bus ever (outside of London anyway) know the bus might not come, there might not be room for you etc.

I don't see why people should be denied access to a pram space by a case about wheelchair spaces or why they aren't campaigning about the actual problem - the blocking of wheelchair spaces rather than the use of prams on buses at all.

Because in the other post written by the solicitor it mentions that these proposals would set a precedent in national law and be applicable country wife.

Ha *wide...

so why arent parents campaigning? Because they feel entitled to use the wheelchair space and sod the wheelchair user and their 'issues' last 3 years max.
Fold the fucking pushchair.

They aren't bringing a case because they aren't protected by law.

I'm always slightly stunned by the lack of imagination which means people compare the 'difficulties' of able bodied parenting with having a disability.

Are people really that clueless/self centred?

Posts on this very thread suggest that, yes, they are. And also that their convenience is more important than the possibility for independence for a person with disabilities.

Still there's karma of a sort As I have learnt, we are all only TABs: Temporarily Able-Bodied.