Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

Every time one of these threads arises it highlights how different things are in different parts of the country. Everyone assumes that all buses everywhere are exactly the same as their local buses.

Where we moved from the buses all had a wheelchair space on each side of the bus, and flip down seats all the way down both sides in the front section. The buses are called buggy bus. It is written on the side of the buses in huge letters. They have room for 2 wheelchairs plus 4 or 5 pushchairs.

If one area can do it I can't see why it's so hard for others to do so. It solves all the arguments and nobody needs to get off.

Having said that I had to get the bus when my eldest was tiny back in the 1980s when you had to fold the pram. It was such a faff I swore I'd never do it again and I haven't. They wonder why people insist on using their cars instead of getting public transport. They just need to read a thread like this to see one of the reasons why.

Patronising cows? Are these the zombie cows lurking by bus stops?

So, as someone said. Get your campaign going. I've done mine and people like you ignore it, because you've got twins, heavy shopping etc ad infinitum.

Sorry, but my dds posting has more relevance to this post than anything you could possibly have to say.

Maybe we could all club together and get a MN cattle prod for all those precarious times you have to wait in a field with zombie cows?

Dawndonna - you might be but these proposals don't really do much for you if you have disabled children in prams do they? They suggest you don't use the bus or you be chucked off it for someone in a wheelchair.

People use wheelchairs and pushchairs for a lot of reasons. If you make rules you have to make them as fair as possible for everyone that means you do an impact assessment which involves looking for the worst case scenarios and how likely they are to happen. This will vary massively depending on the differences between local areas. In London you have a lot of alternative transport, places like Wales you don't and it makes it more important that all people are able to use buses when they need to.

Well I am most pissed off that there isn't a designated space for my piano. And would be mightily hacked off should someone ask me to move it or to simply get a smaller piano accordian!

I have never used a disabled space on a bus in my life. I've used a pram space when it was literally unavoidable. I don't know what I would have done if the buses didnt have a pram space is all I'm saying.

I've had older ladies put their trolleys on their laps or squidged them by their feet

One of the few times I've seen the driver get out and have to clear a wheelchair space for a wheel chair was because some old ladies refused to move their shopping trollies.

I think the clear signage on the buses here restricting max two pushchairs - though driver will let more on with provisos they may have to get off - and that the wheelchair users have priority in the wheelchair area - mean most people are considerate and when they aren?t the bus drivers do get out and insist.

How did your dd know the people with pushchairs didnt have disabled children?

I imagine because they did not say anything? You can't just assume that everyone who is using a wheelchair space for a pram has got a disabled child in that pram.

It is much more likely that they just bought one of those stupid bugaboo donkeys because it looks pretty and holds loads of shopping and can't be bothered to move/fold/be a nice human being.

Constantly putting forward perverse and unlikely scenarios to try and vindicate your objection to wheelchair spaces for the disabled is getting a bit tedious Offred.
The fact remains that the need for proposals wouldn't exist if those who could would just fold their buggies up.

Have you thought of going into politics?

Everyone is on the same side - is there any need for so much aggression?

You are preaching to the converted. The entitled cows you speak of are not interested in threads like this.

I think that hidden disabilities in the mothers may be more common than you think. E.g my friend uses buses with a baby and has just had a mascectomy because of cancer - in the brief interaction at a bus stop you might assume she was being a princess, but her surgery has made folding v. difficult...

I have to go now and try and each my dog to shit in a specific part of the garden.
He's a bright boy. I am more optimistic than I am about this thread tbh.

I've only once seen a wheelchair refused access to a bus, but that was because the space was already occupied by a wheelchair. The buggy space is not wide enough to fit a wheelchair.

I've seen pushchairs/prams refused from time to time but generally because all the available space was taken up by pushchairs that weren't folded.

If nothing else, this thread is evidence of the need for clear, national laws to be passed and backed up by penalties and fines for those that break them.
The reasonable and considerate who would already fold, move or wait for the next bus will be fine, situation as normal for them.
The selfish and argumentative who feel that the rules are unfair will either think carefully and make changes, adapt, move onto other forms of transport or pay the fines. Or campaign for change to meet their needs.
Though the selfish would probably not have the stamina to campaign for long, as soon as their children were out of buggies, they'd stop caring.

Don't be too pessimistic about this thread: I used to be one of those people who thought there were exceptions for the disabled space rule (if you've got loads of kids, shopping etc etc etc I was quite willing to see the difficult circumstances and think there was some leeway), until some lovely people pointed out their difficulties (I think DawnDonnas DDs post was on that thread too) and I saw that actually it's pretty clear cut. Now I get pissed off at people who thought like I used to! So there is hope!

I've commented on it a lot of times. How did she know the people with prams in that one situation didnt have children with disabilities?

The problem I see is not the existence of prams. It is the lack of facilities and the poor management of facilities that do exist. Buses which leave passengers behind because they are full should mean bigger buses or more buses are put on that route. Blocking of disabled spaces shouldn't be only about prams, it should be about blocking, the bus companies should look at making dedicated spaces for wheelchairs/the disabled, some of these proposals prevent people with prams using pram spaces which is ridiculous and unnecessary.

What they are bothered about is not being able to access buses/use disabled spaces and the solutions need to fit that problem, it seems unnecessary to make it about prams and prams alone like people with prams and small children have to be banned or in some circs get off but able bodied people can sit in the space or people can store luggage in the space? That's why I think it is a mission against prams because they are more bothered about prams than blockage of the space.

Problem solved for me now though, DS is usually unsteady on his feet on moving objects like buses. So he took a standard seat on the rail replacement bus and I sat on him. Much easier.
Not an option for those whose babies aren't 6' and unbreakable.

You can be my shit guru Maryz.
I'll get you a badge or summat.

They already have dedicated spaces for wheelchairs. It says very clearly on most buses that the space is for wheelchairs but may be used by buggies unless a wheelchair user needs it.

I reckon 2 or 3 people on a bus all with disabled kids/valid reasons not to fold, is highly unlikely (though not impossible) and it comes down to basic manners and a bit of thought.

Please stop telling me I am talking about being entitled to use disabled spaces. at no point have I said that what I am saying is these rules would apply to the pram spaces too

Well tbh i think you have just misdiagnosed the problem there Offred.

I don't see why there would be a random campaign against prams. It doesn't make much sense unless you think bus companies are pramist
I think they are the main subject of the proposals because they are the main offenders.

They do apply to the pram spaces. If people are sitting on the fold down seats they are expected to move if someone gets on with a buggy.