Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

They aren't asking to ban/make it impossible for people with luggage or non wheelchair users to use the bus and both those regularly block wheelchair spaces.

How???

There are a series of options there. Only one suggests a ban on prams. All the others talk about folding them.

People who block the wheelchair space by standing should of course be asked to move, as with people who have lots of luggage. But given what these wheelchair users are saying, in the majority of cases it's pram users who are not moving. So that's why this is aimed at pram users.

Perhaps they haven't found that to be an issue? I haven't seen many people complaining they can't get on because of those things!

Back in the olden days before they had these accesible buses I put newborn dd in a fold up buggy which had a harness kept in the basket, no drama. People are lazy, they want to have their cake and eat it ( ie hummer prams which take up the space of 3 small pushchairs.

It isn't disability campaigners btw, it is a group of wheelchair users. They don't really care about the legion of disabled who don't use a wheelchair or parents of disabled children who use a pushchair.

Bollocks. I have been campaigning since 1976. My uncle since 1960. We're extraordinarily well known in political circles. There are some on here who are able to vouch for that.

It isn't just wheelchair users who have reasons they can't be flexible, there are other disabled people, people recovering from birth/surgery, people travelling to hospital, people with hidden disabilities and children with special needs and shock horror people who have mobility problems which do not require they use a wheelchair...

Perhaps Offred needs to spend a day with someone in a wheelchair and see just how much of a struggle day to day life is.

And non of those people (other than perhaps the special needs if they are in a wheelchair/pram) NEED to use the disabled space.

They may need to ask someone else to help them, or if they could let them sit down but they don't need the disabled space.

I've seen plenty of disabled spaces blocked by luggage/other people.

I see prams/buggies on practically very bus i get on. As I said, I use buses daily. I rarely see luggage blocking a wheelchair space. That is why they are focussing on buggies.

I can't take this seriously any more.

My 10 year old DD finds this perfectly simple to comprehend. It's just clap trap.

It's because the general population can see that is is totally unreasonable to block a wheelchair space with a suitcase or piano, but when it comes to prams, people seem to think that those spaces are designed for them. They aren't. It is a happy accident that using buses with a baby is now a lot easier than it used to be.

I think 1 is a linguistic issue actually - I would take 'pram' to mean an old fashioned pushchair which can't be folded at all. So I don't see an issue with 1 either.

If they mean 'pram' as in any wheeled device for transporting babies then use it is not fair.

All the other proposals would only lead to families being denied access or asked to leave the bus if they refused to fold their pushchair.

You are extraordinarily narrow minded and selfish, Offred, and I don't care if I get deleted for saying that.

I don't see why this is so complicated.

Disabled rights campaigners ensured that every bus is wheelchair accessible, so the space has to be able to accommodate a wheelchair.

The bus company need as many paying customers as possible to use their facilities, parents of young children/babies use public transport a lot, so those spaces are now also designed to accommodate prams, buggies and bulky luggage for commercial reasons as well as to comply with the law.

To stick to the schedule they need everyone to get on and off as quickly as possible, so unless we go back to the days of having conductors to assist passengers getting everyone to fold every buggy wouldn't improve their service.

Disabled travellers have priority. So you fold (if you can, I can't), or get off.
An ongoing ticket would be helpful.

Have a clear policy. Train the drivers not to drive like hooligans if people are attempting to fold/hold babies at the time. Warn parents boarding with buggies that they will have to fold or move if required. Enforce this so every wheelchair user can get on. Can't see the problem myself and the ONLY person whose life that makes harder is people like me (twin mum).

If you have a child with disabilities in a standard buggy, or you can't fold because you yourself have disabilities, you just make the driver aware when you get on and they tell you the accessible space policy. IF a wheelchair user needs to get on at the same time then the driver just explains that they already have a disabled passenger travelling, same as if there was a wheelchair in the space.

How does this get so complicated?

I would like to get on a bus with a rugby team space though.

Ooh, I wouldn't pagwatch, think of the post-match BO.

I remain astonished that there are posters here arguing that wheelchair spaces should not be prioritised for wheelchair users - really?

Agree that there should be buggy spaces where possible. The poor quality of rural public transport is a separate issue that affects everyone, whether parents, able bodied or otherwise. It is also one that wheelchair spaces should not be expected to solve.

I now have this refrain in my head:
Fold the buggy up, fold the buggy up, pull, pull, clap, clap, clap.

What those proposals would actually do is put those who choose to take a non folding pram/pushchair onto public transport .... in pretty much the same position wheelchair users are now! Having to wait at a bus stop until an empty bus comes along.

Most of the proposals actually make it more likely that you'll be able to get onto a bus with a pushchair/pram! By forcing people already onboard to fold pushchairs and prams, there's actually more chance you'll be able to fit on with your pushchair or pram.

Good post Twelvelegged

Good point EasilyBored.

These proposals are so damn tricky.

Yes, Offred, having three children with ASDs I'm fully aware of that. Funnily enough so are those that campaign.
In fact until he got too old to support his weight, my uncle used to use crutches, he could get on and off a routemaster, with difficulty but he could. He campaigned, despite not being a wheelchair user.
My dd campaigns.
FFS We're aware that it's not just about wheelchair users, but a wheelchair space is exactly that, a space for someone using a wheelchair, not a pram, not luggage. And as has been pointed out, I have never, nor has my dd had someone refuse to move luggage. It's only ever people with prams and buggies that don't let us on. I've had older ladies put their trolleys on their laps or squidged them by their feet. But the entitled cows with their 'oh my baby is only a few weeks old, your dd is bigger, piss me right off.
So do patronising cows.

That's not what I am arguing about. I am pointing out that these proposals if set as a precedent would apply to all buses, including ones with pram spaces which can't be used by disabled people and including buses in a lot of the proposals where disabled people didn't want to use the bus and are "just in case" measures...

All wheelchair spaces are 'just in case' measures. Just in case, you know, a person in a wheelchair wants to use the bus..