Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

That is what happens when you have a pram at a bus stop, the bus goes past without stopping when the pram space is full or it stops and tells you to wait.

Surely the answer to this is simple: Rather than having a shit fit about not being able to use a space that is designed for wheelchair users and coming up with a bunch of random situations where life is really quite difficult for you coughtinyviolincough, you should start a national campaign to try and force bus companies to modify their buses so that they are accessible for prams as well as wheelchairs. If some buses have designated spots for wheelchairs and also designated spots for prams, then why not try and force all bus companies to do the same? Or is it easier to sit at your computer and have a whine about how hard life is?

Or start a campaign to reintroduce general human kindness - I imagine most people on MN would help someone who was struggling to fold a buggy and wrangle toddlers and twins and three weeks worth of shopping, so maybe we need to all start to be more vocal about helping people?

I wonder would a wheelchair accessible dial -a -ride service in addition to normal bus services be a good idea for rural locations? It would have to be subsidised but would avoid all these problems as the space could be booked in advance.

Like a large communal taxi..
.

It isn't about having a shit fit about using the wheelchair space, these proposals will set a precedent for the whole country and may apply to buses which are already modified to accept prams and wheelchairs, the proposals mention nothing about the issue being about the wheelchair space they talk about buses generally and therefore may end up applying to buses which have a pram space (which incidentally can't be used by a wheelchair anyway), why can't the proposal be that the bus company is forced to make pram spaces on buses?

They're wheelchair spaces. That's what they're for. A baby is not a disability.

Well then I suggest that you contact the people making the proposal and point that out Offred. That is the point of things like this. Make yourself heard.

Im starting to think proposal number 2 is the best one - then there is room for everyone who wants to board.

Sorry, but every day I rely on the goodwill of others, i catch a bus to school with my dcs, there is no luggage area, or space for pram/wheelchairs. It is an old coach and only has seating has steps up into the bus. I catch the bus with dd1 and 2 and ds, ds is 2.5 and in a buggy - it is a Mountain Buggy, I fold it and put it in the hold under the bus, whilst dd1 gets holds ds - it is a struggle, i won't deny it, because we have school bags, and ds, although he can can walk, he is unsteady and erratic, and dd1 is 6 and tiny.

BUT everyday, the bus driver gets off and helps us, and people offer to help with the dds and ds. If no-one offers then I ask, and people help.

If we catch a bus into town or the hospital, then we use a stroller (I don't like using this for everyday use, because ds tends to slump more in it). We have had to fold when prams get on with younger children than ds, which is a pain, but again, I ask people to help - I wouldn't manage if I didn't. I have had teenagers, young children, men, women and old people help out (once 2 old ladies lifted ds in his pushchair onto the bus for me - despite my protestations!).

On the whole people don't mind helping if asked.

And if you choose to buy an unfoldable tank of a pushchair don't expect to be able to use it on public transport.

That is just how it is Mary, I assume people fold if they can to make enough room. If I was in a none folding wheelchair I wouldn't ask someone to fold their folding wheelchair so I could get on, I'd assume if they could do they would have done it.

I don't see it as any different to buses getting too full to allow any passengers at all or regularly just not turning up, that's just how it is for everyone using buses, you can't guarantee you'll fit. A disabled person may already be in the space another disabled person wants to use, it is easier to replan a journey from the start of it, you can't have a competition about who needs it more at the bus stop you just have to suck it up.

That's why I cycle now, there was a short time when I had no option but to use a bus.

If you know you are going to be using buses regularly, why get a massive pram? Why not spend £30 on a easily folding buggy. It would make everyones' lives easier.

I'm lucky in that there are many many buses where I live and they all have wheelchair and buggy spaces. But some prams are too big for the buggy space and mean that where you could fit 2 buggies, you can only fit one pram which usually spills over into the aisle causing an obstruction anyway. There needs to be a lot more compassion and some common sense used.

I walked 3 miles in a blizzard with a tandem buggy once, to get to a hospital appointment for ds. There were no buggy/wheelchair spaces then and getting a taxi was not an option due to lack of funds. It was tough. I was freezing and soaked but I got there and on time which is more than can be said for the consultant.

I have already contacted the bus company's solicitor when this was posted elsewhere on the Internet.

Lol at babies dying of dying from hypothermia waiting for us bus - a well wrapped up baby in a buggy that's too big to fold with a decent raincover is not going to die from hypothermia if they have to get off to allow a wheelchair user to use the space (or just fold the bloody thing if it's a matter of life or death).

Honestly these scenarios are ridiculous. How on earth would you manage with an actual problem if folding a buggy becomes a dice with death.

People don't necessarily plan that well for journeys to hospital though. Children waiting in the rain even in raincoats for an hour next to a field in the middle of nowhere would be very vulnerable.

Have you ever waited for an hour for the next bus in a rural area with no shelter Jimjams?

Someone asked how to reduce over reliance on buggies, well I simply suggest some easy thought processes. Do you really need one. If you do do you need to take it on the bus. Can you use an alternative, can the child walk, are you merely using it for shopping? I'd wager a majority of pushchair journeys aren't necessary, a bit like car journeys really. If you really do feel you need it then great, take it on the bus and pay a luggage fee if you won't fold it, get a badge if you can't (truly can't). This can apply to other large pieces of luggage too. It is bizarre to me to expect to take something as large as an unfolded pushchair on a bus or train. Wheelchairs are often necessary to people in a way many buggies are not.

lol Saintly, dicing with death at folding buggies. If they want they can borrow DS and his wheelchair to find out how easy it is, then they can decide haha

Would they be more vulnerable than a person in a wheelchair waiting in the rain next to a field (am not entirely sure why the field is relevant) with a coat on?

Would wheelchair users prefer if all wheelchair spaces were bookable?

Because the actual problem is no different for some people with prams, not everyone needs a wheelchair all the time. Not everyone who needs buses to be more accessible is in a wheelchair.

I'm arguing with it because it is offensive to tar all mothers as entitled when it is the bus company which needs to provide better facilities for disabled people and not just people in wheelchairs.

It's the worst kind of entitled-because-I-have-a-child bullshit to expect people in a wheelchair - who have no choice about the room they take up on a bus - to be left waiting at a bus stop because you were there first and you can't manage your DC and a pram.