Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

This isn't about London it is about the north east. The north east is very rural.

What exactly is the problem with having a pram space?

It was not a problem here because we do have a pram space and people do use it correctly.

no bother Mary. I don't mind give and take. It was hard work, everything was heavy including DS, what people don't realise is when your child has no control of there body you carry that child around, lifting and bending, upstairs, downstairs etc etc all day every day. I just didn't need the hassle off others while I proceeded and could of used some help TBH. However he's my DS and no one else is gonna help, 12 year on has proved that one.

Well if you can't find a folding twin buggy (I did say I walked with mine) and you won't let anyone else hold your babies so you can fold it then you'll just have to get off the bus if a wheelchair user needs the space. Your choice.

I remember a thread on here before about a mother with a child in a wheelchair who needed to use the bus to pick up her older child. 5 buses went past and not one pram user made any effort to let her on. She couldn't just fold a wheelchair so she had to stand and wait, while her child waited for mummy to get there.

Someone with a pram with them (assuming child doesn't have special needs) CAN fold the pram and get on a bus, it's harder but it's possible.

would like to add I'm in the north east

You're right sirzy, of course.

But that problem is not the existence of prams on buses, it is prams using the disabled space, why is the solution to make it so that people with prams are not allowed on buses.

I DO and have made room for wheelchairs and other prams, what I am objecting to is the kicking off of prams for wheelchairs and the banning of prams which would have very badly affected you too with twins and a disabled child...

if I had my DS in the wheelchair space obviously needing it, I wouldn't mind helping anyone on the bus so we all fit on. Common courtesy goes a long way.

The only people who should be kicked off buses are those morons who refuse (with no good reason) to fold and move for wheelchairs.

I might add that I've seen plenty of buses refuse entry to disabled people because they are full of able bodied people and also seen able bodied people refuse to move for people in wheelchairs, the solution is to ban able bodied people from using buses yes? Or is it to make space for all people who want to use buses?

Maybe part of the trouble is that they don't have bus conductors any more, so you're asking one bus driver to take payments, police the seating arrangements (which presumably he or she can't see all that well, being at the front of the bus, CCTV or no), and drive the bus safely and on time.

It is possible that the majority of pushchair users who don't fold (not that I've ever seen one) haven't been told there is a wheelchair user waiting to get on and can't see who is at the bus stop.

And I really take objection to people talking about 'entitled mothers' like it's only women who behave badly, or that mothers are some kind of enemy to all but their own children.

I think the solution is for those who object to the entitled morons, to speak up and shame them into doing what is right. More people need to speak up and more people need to be prepared to be helpful and come out of their precious little bubbles.

It is too early for this. I need more coffee.

In the OP - pram is used to mean a pushchair that doesn't fold (like those huge silvercross ones) buggy/pushchair is used to mean a folding one.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to ban unfolding pushchairs. They are a totally daft thing to take on a bus.

No, that is NOT what these proposals say.

Read them.

They say people with prams should be forced to either not use the bus at all, fold the pram whether or not there is a wheelchair user and be kicked off the bus if someone in a wheelchair is waiting.

Again, what is the problem with having, as we do, a pram space and a disabled space which are each suitable for their purpose and not suitable for each other which are used on a first come first served basis like the seats on buses generally, meaning that all people can make plans to reasonably use the bus.

My dd wrote the following on a similar thread, last June:

This is Dawndonna's dd1.
I'm fifteen. I use a wheelchair. Today I wanted to go to the city with my friends. Mum had an operation yesterday so can't drive me. My twin sister thought she could get me on the bus. I have come home. It's dry,but a bit windy and I started to get a bit too cold. The first two buses had buggies on and both of them were 'well, she's a kid just going to hang about in the city whilst we need to shop for our babies'. The third one didn't have a ramp. Yes, I could have waited for another but I get hypothermia. It's half eleven now and I'm only just warming up. My twin is typing this for me.
Do you know, Mum has been rattling on about this crap on Mumsnet for days, to be honest, I wish most of you would piss off and shut up. Mum feels she needs to defend me and somedays she does, today, she wouldn't have put up with the bus stuff, but I'm fifteen, and whilst I'm incredibly articulate, I find it difficult to have to state my case in front of thirty odd adult strangers on a bus. Why should I? Well, for all those reasons stated by the so called pompous gits on here, I get hypothermia, there is only one space, it's none of your business to question my motives for getting the bus. It's actually none of your business to open negotiations as to who should or should not stay on the bus.
Unlike Mum, I shan't be coming back to check on this. I am made aware on a daily basis that there are many, many rude and selfish adults out there, I don't need it in my home too, because that's what the internet does, it brings this sort of bullying into my home.

Nothing more to be said, really.

Right now it is a subjective judgement call - I suspect that with prams being automatically ejected in random rural locations, it will be a matter of time before there is a related tragedy - e.g. newborn with hypothermia, small child hit by car.

With an aging population, the need for wheelchair spaces will grow. It makes sense to have separate (smaller) pram spaces. To campaign for something positive as well as taking from one vulnerable group to give to another.

It bothers me that this is only about prams - I have often seen luggage hogging the wheelchair space and there is now nowhere else to put either suitcases or folded prams.

I can't drive and had to rely on buses.

If you have a baby and want to use buses, then get a folding buggy.

One day,however, I was absolutely loaded down with shopping on my buggy when a wheelchair user wanted to get on - I got off and waited for the next bus. There are prams/buggies on virtually every bus these days (i use buses daily), that could lead to wheelchair users waiting forever at bus stops.

I don't think prams should be banned from buses. I reckon people should be fined for not giving up a disabled space to a disabled person. It's no great hardship to either fold a buggy or wait for another bus.

I think there just needs to be designated spaces for pushchairs on buses,aswell as disabled spaces,that would surely solve it?noone is allowed to use theother.

They are proposals and asking what people think us best. That is what the thread is for offred and most people have said no 1 is noy ok but no 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are fine and yes in an ideal world buses would have a space fir a wheelchair AND a pushchair (some of my local buses do) the reality is unless parents campaign that wont happen.

In the meantime the space us for a wheelchair use you know those whi campaigned for years to get them and who have no other choice.

Except that doesn't tell you why people with prams were on the bus or how many people with prams were refused entry or whether the people with prams were asked about the wheelchair. It simply tells you that it is hard travelling on buses in a wheelchair. If you are at home you can go home to avoid hypothermia, if you are at the side of a road next to a field and you have no clue where you are you can't. It still is not that simple. It still would be solved by having pram spaces on buses. I'm sure your dd has also experienced able bodied people blocking her from the bus, it isn't that simple, it isn't the existence of prams on buses which are the problem, some people are entitled and mean, you can't judge this based on them being able bodied, disabled, having a pram or whatever...