Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

The pram folds, that isn't the issue, the issue is it contained twin babies and I had also a 3 and 4 year old.

Agree that drivers attitudes would need to change too and those who see their bus as their own private kingdom would need a swift kick up the backside from management. They'd also have to be allowed to help if need be and luggage racks would need to be reinstated.

On more than one occasion where I've said I'll collapse my buggy I've moved into the aisle to let the wheelchair user into the space and then the driver has instantly pulled away leaving me in the aisle trying to collapse a buggy on a moving bus with a toddler and a baby. Thank goodness they're like old lady bait and I get lots of offers of "I'll hold them for you, dear" or I'd be knacked!

I've also had drivers refuse to let me on even though the space is empty just in case a wheelchair user needs to get on. When I've said I'll move if they do, no because it'll take too long. Well I'll collapse it now then. No, it'll take too long I put a complaint in about that one.

Yes of course I do!

It happens more often to wheelchair uses because they need more space to fit on! Therefore they need more people to be considerate and make space for them. A single person can squidge onto an over full bus quite easily a single wheelchair can't and has to rely far more on the kindness of strangers. In some places that is severely lacking...

Why do you think an elderly person couldn't hold a baby? It is usually elderly people who have offered to help me and they have managed just fine.

Buses drive past bus stops when they are full. It happens vastly less often to wheelchair users because there are fewer of them.

What is the problem exactly with having a pram space and a wheelchair space?

An elderly person can't lift a pram into a luggage rack for you on a moving bus when you have two slipped disks and worries about actually becoming disabled yourself if you injure your back.

Haven't read whole thread.So if this has been mentioned I apologise.

I am the parent of a disabled child and therefore I am all in favour of wheelchair spaces being used for disabled travellers. However when my wee boy ( now a wheelchair user) was a baby I couldn't have folded his pushchair down. He had a "normal" pushchair buy was continuously tube fed, generally had plaster casts on one or both legs and I couldn't have taken him out and folded his pushchair down. He had an NG tube ( feeding tube in hid nose) but many children have tubes inserted in their abdomen which are not obvious.

I suppose what I am trying to say is you cannot bam pushchair from using those spaced either as there may be children with disabilities who are still in a pushchair/buggy where it is impossible fir them to be taken out and pushchair folded.....

Proportionally it happens much more to wheelchair users.

They have the worry every time they go out that some selfish person with a pram will make it so they can't travel.

So do people with prams and also people who walk but have mobility problems...

OF COURSE wheelchairs take priority over pushchairs and prams. I have never seen anyone refuse to get off a London bus for a wheelchair user.

Here's what I think:

If able-bodied people would sit upstairs when there is room, there would be a lot more space downstairs for wheelchairs and buggies and people who need to sit downstairs.

London bus users - are there REALLY a plethora of passengers who are willing to help you on buses with a baby and a toddler? Really? Because I'm in SE London and I have come across about 2, ever.

I'd be happy to fold my buggy every time if there were room to easily store it and if the bus driver would fricking WAIT for me to get the kids sat down safely and fold it before s/he speeded off in the jerky way only bus drivers can.

I'm so sick of the way it's seen as inconsiderate mothers yet again putting their precious children in front of everyone else. Generally, it isn't. It's parents trying to get from A to B without having a nervous breakdown in what is seldom a very friendly or helpful environment.

I'm sorry if I seem harsh, I'm sure having 4 small children isn't easy - kudos for dealing with them. But you are being very short sighted if you can't see that you have more options than a person in a wheelchair and that if you modified your expectations you could manage.

A person in a wheelchair CAN'T fold it up so that both they and the person with the buggy can fit on. A person with a buggy CAN - it just might be a bit inconvenient for them.

Stuff happens in life that is a bit inconvenient. Deal with it.

which is exact;y why I said blue badge = disabled space on the bus. I folded my difficult heavy disabled buggy while lying my DS on the dirty floor (he couldn't sit) until I done it and carried his bigger than the average toddlers bag on the bus and made the driver wait till I was seated with DS and his attached oxygen tank. I got tutted and stared and all the comments making the bus late by the passengers. But the buggies wouldn't move. I was already late for DS's daily heart appointment but hey ho we don't need to be anywhere and can wait till a bus comes by with no buggy there?? I then used DS's blue badge to say we need the space.

gallivants, i have mentioned it too (ds is 2.6 and disabled, but in a normal buggy).

In london buses are much more regular though, and there is generally alternative options - elsewhere where it's more likely to be an hour until the next bus passengers are much friendly ime.

That is entirely my subjective opinion though!

I think there has been an unwelcome change in attitudes since wheelchair spaces were introduced on buses and were gradually taken over by parents with buggies 'just while it's free'. 18 years ago I had serious back problems and struggled to get on buses with steps and no spaces. Although I could walk, it was apparent to everyone that I needed help getting on and off buses and it was always forthcoming.
8 years later and with a new baby to ferry around, my problems had become more serious and I needed a wheelchair to get about. By now there were both wheelchair and buggy spaces on local buses. I could only go out with DH pushing us as the baby had to travel on my lap. Being left at the bus stop in the cold, with a young baby, because nobody would fold their buggies, was a common experience. 'Just while it's free' had become 'It's my space now, so you can wait'. I gave up trying to go out at all after a couple of months of this.

It wouldn't just be inconvenient though, someone in a wheelchair waiting for the next bus to get to the shop would be less inconvenienced than me not being able to pick up my child from school at all or me being forced to damage my back or risk haemorrhage from walking or just not be able to feed my babies who had weight gain problems in that case.

It isn't that simple.

What is the problem with having a pram space as well as a wheelchair space which is what they have here.

Of course I know wheelchair users (quite a few at last count). What a bizarre question? An intrigued that someone might not know any!

Well done Devient. So. Sad that you had to take ds out and lay him on filthy bus floor though! Grrrr on your behalf. Using blue badge is a great idea.

Because people wouldn't leave the wheelchair space empty, they would still decide they could use it.

Risk haemorrhage and feeding babies from folding a pushchair? Blimey.

There is no such thing as "a sensible buggy" for using a bus with twin babies. It isn't just the babies that make it impossible to fold, it is the other children and the need to rely on people helping you. Yes; I am "one of those" people who doesn't want just anyone to hold my children, I'm pretty sure the bus company wouldn't allow it either, mainly I don't want to be forced to rely on other people helping me because on the whole they won't. I don't see why it is necessary if there is a. No wheelchair on the bus and b. no need if all buses had both a wheelchair and a pram space.

I managed with twins, one of whom is disabled, and toddlers. Get over yourself and hand them to other people.

This is a great plan to further isolate vulnerable mothers who are already disadvantaged by not having a car.

Your attitude feels like a plan to further isolate disabled people.

And bollocks is it more likely to happen to a wheelchair user, do you actually know any wheelchair users?

That would be my 16 year old dd. She's written on here before about her experiences of trying to get the bus when entitled mothers are on. I'll see if I can find it for you. It's fucking heartbreaking.

Saintly - some of the views on this thread highlight that people obviously don't know anyone in a wheelchair otherwise they may have some level of appreciation as to how much of a struggle day to day life is.