Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

---------

I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

No damash if you have a pushchair with s child of any age and a wheelchair user needs the space then yoi fold up the pushchair. Get someone to help with bags or baby if necessary and then hold baby on your lap. Carseat rules are not applicable on buses so i dont know why you are quoting those.

Just because you 'always thought' it was wheelchair or buggy space dies not mean that is the case. It's a wheelchair space enshrined in law and hard fought for. They've only been around 17 years or so.

There's no issue having a buggy in them if no one else wants the space. But if a wheelchair user wants it then damn well fold! Some people are so (shudders cos I hate this word) ENTITLED.

damash - but we all need seatbelts in a car and not a bus. It's not a valid comparison you're making.

People have suggested that it'd be good if buses were redesigned to have space for buggies and wheelchairs.

Where do you live, btw? None of my beeswax, obviously, it's just I've not been anywhere in England where wheelchairs don't have priority over people who're not disabled.

I always wonder how on earth people who make such a meal out of travelling on bus manage when facing real challenges.

Why can't you do something really odd like HOLD your baby on the bus so that someone else who needs that space can come on?

The other issue here is that the wheelchair user might not be able to just want for another bus. They DO have extra needs over and above the able bodied parent of a child.....however young that child might be.

Be sensible I say and have a light weight buggy for bus trips. Many buggies are now suitable from birth.

Yes it might be a pain to have to sort everything out to make room for the wheelchair user but I am betting you wouldn't choose to swap places.

There is a world of difference between able bodied parent and a disabled wheelchair user. It shocks me that so many people can't seem to appreciate this.

Sirzy didn't you see? Holding the baby on your lap means they're not restrained. Sod the fact a wheelchair user is having to wait in the wet and/or cold as they haven't been able to access the bus due to her actions.

i havnt read the thread from start to finish so sorry if its been brought up but....

why would a disabled person be more important than someone with a pushchair?(and vice versa)

surely we are all just people who are all equal,i dont see why the space cant just be for wheelchairs and pushchairs,just whoever gets on first?

why does one person take priority over another?

Amber - a person in a wheelchair can't fold it up to make space for both the person with the pushchair and themselves. The person with the pushchair can.

It's not that bloody hard or difficult to understand!

If the pushchair uses folds the ruddy thing then it can be for both.

And a pushchair user really won't fold they do have a choice of walking (read Sons & Lovers to discover how far people used to walk). Not all obviously but a chunk of bus journeys are walkable.

Will some of you please think about what the consequences of these "rules" would be.

And sir boob wtf? If you have a pram you already have to approach buses in that way. These rules make it so that people with prams simply can't use buses at all and I fail to see why that is fair.

There is no such thing as "a sensible buggy" for using a bus with twin babies. It isn't just the babies that make it impossible to fold, it is the other children and the need to rely on people helping you. Yes; I am "one of those" people who doesn't want just anyone to hold my children, I'm pretty sure the bus company wouldn't allow it either, mainly I don't want to be forced to rely on other people helping me because on the whole they won't. I don't see why it is necessary if there is a. No wheelchair on the bus and b. no need if all buses had both a wheelchair and a pram space.

You are asking that prams be banned from the bus, with twins a 3 and 4 year old that means I couldn't have used the bus whether or not a disabled person even wanted to get on.

Asking that all prams be folded, this is simply not possible, you know people would then bang on about "selfish" mothers who expected others to supervise their children and you know the bus driver would not have time to wait for all the carrying and loading and unloading and sitting down, plus it would not be possible for me to hold two babies and supervise two toddlers at the same time on the bus and how do I get off?

You want people with prams to get off which would lead to people travelling to hospital appointments through rural areas here where the bus only comes once an hour being dumped in the middle of nowhere with small children and nothing to do other than wait an hour for the next bus with small children near to the road and no guarantee that on the hospital route you could actually get the next bus.

When I was in this position I'm sure I appeared to be perfectly normal although I was bleeding extremely heavily for 6 months because of the huge size of the placenta and if I had walked 4 miles to school everyday a. I would have haemorrhaged and b. it would have been too difficult to feed the babies and get a tired ds1 home as dd was already on the buggy board.

In most of the situations buses will exclude families and disabled people will not even use the bus. If buses have a pram space this problem is eliminated completely without any of the crap consequences.

As I said before, 20 years ago when I was a child and prams were big and parents couldn't use buses we had local shops and a local hospital. We also had a much more frequent/better bus service AND people in wheelchairs could not get the bus. We don't have that anymore but I fail to see why it is ok to compare how life would be back then without using a bus to now, it is completely different.

why would a disabled person be more important than someone with a pushchair?(and vice versa)

Where would you like me to start?

First of all it's not about being more important, it's about being able to access facilities, and in this case facilities which have been designed to make life possible for people with disabilities.

Parents have choices. They can make sure their pram in easy to collapse, they can use a sling, they can walk. Someone who is disabled, or who has a disabled child doesn't have those choices.

Having a young child is an inconvenience for a few years, a disability makes things hard for life.

You really can't compare the two

amber - a disabled person isn't 'more important', they just have a greater need.

If you're in a wheelchair, you don't have the option to make room for someone with a buggy and a baby, except by getting off the bus. Added to that, if you get off the bus, you are more likely to be stranded - much of the tube is inaccesible by wheelchair, and in some places you can't even easily go and get a coffee in the warm while you wait, because the place nearest the bus stop isn't always accessible.

If you've got a buggy, you can fold it up and make room, or take the tube, or go upstairs - you've got far more options.

I don't see any problem with the proposals and I have small children.

In many years I've only ever been on a bus at the same time as a wheelchair once, and there was enough space (flip-up seat areas) and it was quiet enough that I didn't even have to fold buggy anyway!

If I had had to it would have been mildly inconvenient for me for a few minutes. That's it. Out of my entire life. You don't HAVE to get off the bus because a wheelchair gets on - you have to fold your buggy and get over yourself if that means asking for help when'd you'd rather not. Having to fold your buggy up is no big deal. There are no long term consequences, it is nothing, barely even an anecdote worth mentioning when you get home.

But if YOU were in that wheelchair, having to wait in the rain while bus after bus of buggy users refused to fold their pushchairs down and missing your hospital appointment, or being so late to get to work every day that you got fired you'd probably think a bit differently.

It isn't though it is about disabled people being more important because this rule change seeks to ban pushchairs from buses whether a disabled person wants to use the space or not "just in case" or makes families get off buses for disabled people.

It is not that black and white people with prams often have just as much need of the bus as a disabled person as demonstrated by all the examples given; sn children, birth injuries/recovery, large families etc. They also struggle to make other arrangements, for the same reasons, and fact is disabled people and people with prams both know they have to allow extra time for a journey to add in in case they can't get on the bus, as I know as a person who now sometimes gets the bus without a pram, certain buses are too full of school children to let any passengers on - are they going to make them move or just vulnerable families?

It is also much much easier and safer to make different arrangements to travel at the beginning of your journey than at a random bus stop half way. This is a great plan to further isolate vulnerable mothers who are already disadvantaged by not having a car.

The bus company Go North East/Go-ahead have recently started running a bus service where I live (we literally have three bus services, it's crap). Their buses have a wheelchair space on one side and a pushchair space on the other, each bay has a big picture on the floor to clearly mark what it's for.

One afternoon I was in the buggy space and a man with a walking frame and a lady in a wheelchair were in the wheelchair space. Another lady tried to get on in her wheelchair and the driver told her the space was full. I offered to move from the buggy space and was told that while it was appreciated there was no need because the pushchair space is smaller than the wheelchair space and so the aisle would be blocked by the sticking out wheelchair. I've also been on that service where the buggy bay is full so I've parked in the wheelchair space on the understanding that I'd move if need be.

Why can't more bus companies have these buses with two bays? They seem like a fair compromise. I do agree that people with buggies/small children need access to buses too (although not that it should be at the expense of disabled people) and a blanket ban on buggies would only serve to isolate people, particularly women on maternity leave and those in rural areas.

Also, not to add fuel to the fire but a bus driver once told me that for safety reasons in case of an accident it is by far preferable that infants are strapped into a pushchair that is securely parked with the brake on. We were in a near-miss earlier last year where the driver had to slam the brakes on at speed. Lots of people came out of their seats due to it. DS was on DHs knee in the seat behind me and was crushed between DH and the seat, hitting his head on the bar on top of the seat in front. I was in the very front seat and hit the wall in front of me, as the seat folded up when I left it I then hit the floor and the lady next to me half-landed on top of me. DD was in her pushchair and was fine, if it had been folded she'd have been on my knee. This is the main reason that I prefer to get off and wait for the next bus if a wheelchair user needs the space and also why I think buses should have two bays, one for each group.

It isn't any different people with prams have to sit in the rain missing hospital appointments and work because there is no room, so do able bodied people sometimes, and frankly the problem would be solved without the crap consequences of having buses that are refusing access to families but not being used by disabled people 90% of the time or families being dumped in a field in the middle of winter with no idea where they are, if buses where simply built how they are here with a disabled space and a pram space.

It only suggests people whose buggys can't be folded get off the bus.

Who seriously buys a buggy that can't be folded at all and takes it on the bus? You'd have to be a complete idiot! There are hundreds of foldable buggies - including doubles, and very few that don't fold at all these days.

It isn't the same as everyone else because it is much, much more likely to happen to a wheelchair user.

They are WHEELCHAIR spaces, and always have been. Tough shit if you don't like the rules.

Tewi - people who have back problems and who otherwise walk a lot, people who are on a budget and need a multi-use pram or have to just take what they are given.

Plus not everyone could fold a pram anyway even if they had a folding pram, then where do you store it and how do you get off the bus? The bus driver already drives off if you have small children who have to wait for the bus to stop before they stand up because the drivers are under huge pressure to stick to the timetable and they also are not allowed to help you with children/prams.

What is wrong with having a pram space and a wheelchair space as the solution?

You let other people help you.

If you have a bad back you can sit on a seat on the bus.

It still doesn't compare to the struggles on someone with a disability.

And bollocks is it more likely to happen to a wheelchair user, do you actually know any wheelchair users?

I was stony broke when I had my DD, I was given a not-very practical pram - it was a pita, but it folded if necessary. Eventually I bought a cheap but practical umbrella fold.

Every pushchair I have ever seen at a charity shop has folded.

You are bolshy and you tell the driver to wait if you need to. You ask for help if you need. You're an adult, you don't need to be babied and you shouldn't expect to be. Part of being an adult is owning up and asking for help sometimes. And yes I have sometimes asked other bus users if they would hold the baby, it has never been a problem and it is the grown up and sensible thing to do.

Are you an adult or not? Stop making excuses.

and what pram have you got that doesn't fold??

I don't think other people would be able to help, they are all elderly where we live because the buses are off puttingly expensive. I don't think you can rely on people to help.

If you have a bad back you may very well injure yourself hulking the pram/children around on a moving bus or simply just not be able to do it and to top it all it isn't very safe.