to think that whether you love dogs or loathe them you must ensure your children are safe around them?

[poachedeggs]

And you can do that by looking at this fantastic website:

www.liamjperkfoundation.org/

These people are so brave and so inspiring. Their campaign is, in my opinion, the most effective way to keep children safe around dogs. Please take a look and share it with your friends.

Surely it depends on the dog what they find stressful? I mean, guide dogs for example are specifically chosen and trained to work in sometimes hectic environments. I have a spaniel that requires 2 hours of exercise a day. He gets it, and spends the rest of his time either insisting on being a lap dog or snoozing by a radiator. I do take him on the school run, but we drop off near the school and then walk back through woodland. He bloody loves the school run. There are squirrels at the end of it.

BTW, thanks for posting the link. Heartbreaking story, but some very useful photographs which I've shown DS1 this morning. The bite video is shocking, but when you know what to look for, you can see the dog chucking out stress signals all over the place before the bite.

Offred I am sure many people will agree with you that some dog owners are irresponsible and shouldn't have dogs. I'd also advocate for more control over dog breeding and ownership for animal welfare reasons.

However, I think your logic is flawed in seeing the website as placing responsibility on 'society'. In an ideal world, all dog owners would be responsible, and would train their dogs to meet people nicely, come back when called, would not place their dogs in stressful situations etc. In an ideal world, parents/carers would educate their children about safety around animals, in the same way they educate them about the dangers of traffic, fire, water and other unavoidable hazards.

We can't control the dangers that are present in the world - how other people drive, how other people's animals behave, the presence of flammable materials or deep water. The website is equipping parents with resources so that they can make the changes that are within their power to make their children safer and their animals happier.

Your argument of 'why should the burden be on parents to teach dog safety when there are too many irresponsible dog owners' moves no-one towards a safer, happier solution - it just exacerbates the tensions which already exist between dog owners and parents, most of whom are trying to do the best they can most of the time with the limits of knowledge and education. Educating people is the way for that soemtimes inadequate 'best' to get better.

Except I have not said people shouldn't learn about dogs. What I am saying is this website which is designed to educate people about keeping dogs safely makes no mention of deciding to get a dog and thinking about the care/environment you can provide for the dog - that was a significant factor in their child's death but it is all about watching the dog's stress or aggression and not at all about not putting the dog in a situation where it will be stressed. It is firefighting.

It is why should this website place the burden onto people who are around the dog to watch for it's stress signals and not onto people who own dogs and inflict them on other people.

Because, I would imagine, this website is trying to impart a simple, effective message in order to keep more children safe, not deliver a holistic solution to the dog/children issue.

Watching your dog for stress signals and then doing something about it if the dog is unhappy is part of their message. So is effective management of your dogs in situations where children are present. That is a vital part of caring for a dog effectively. Have you read the whole site?

Ranting on about other people's dogs and how they do or don't control them achieves nothing. But if you think it might maybe you could design your own website for that purpose.

I have never taken any of my dogs to a Christmas market. I went to York's Christmas market last weekend. The dog was in York the week before that. On his way home from college. It was a requirement of my course to take him and I had to get him home somehow, unless you believe I should have left him at the college instead?

The two other dogs I own/foster I take on the school run. One of which the children at the school often request to see if I don't bring her for a while. They watched her grow from a puppy because she went everywhere with me for the first few months of her life. The school children adore her and she adores them. The other one now comes as a continuation of training him to calm around large groups of people and dogs. This training started in the park and at my home. Only recently has he been allowed to the school gates, now I know that he is able, to a large degree, to control his excitement.

Just wanted to say how much I've appreciated PoachedEggs putting up this link -it's an excellent resource. Completely agree with Quodlibet's very sensible, measured posts. In response to Offred's post about the wider issues involved in responsible pet ownership, most animal welfare organisations already do a lot to encourage prospective dog owners to think through these issues before taking on an animal. You might like to have a look at the Blue Dog website which is a British approach to many of the same issues. It has been set up by a collaboration between dog behaviourists, vets professional bodies and leading dog charities. Link here

Thanks for posting this OH comes from a family of dog lovers and they take offense very easily at the suggestion that their dogs could ever hurt DD, so this site will help me get the message across without hurting feelings.

YANBU
I know an elderly lady who was bittern badly by their rescue dog.

She says it was very much her DHs dog and for some reason it just went for her.

Dogs are unpredictable creatures.

YANBU OP to remind people of this and keep reminding them.

God, such a tragic story. The thing that jumps out from that site is the parents feeling of guilt, they didn't recognise the signs... The dogs hadn't had as much exercise as norma...l.
But they had done so much right, their son wasn't unsupervised with the dog, the dad was shooing the dog out of the child's space. Its amazing that there're trying to achieve something positive, but I just feel desperately sorry for them.

I don't think you can describe enthusiastic children who want to greet strange dogs as a burden inflicted by dog owners. Not seriously...?

The kennel club has a very good site, including an interactive game to help get the point across.
It's an underused resource that should be used in every school IMO.

my dd1 has a lovely staffie and 2 dcs he has a cage to go in tho but hes really a softie

Poached wtf? It isn't the children that are the burden it is the dogs...

So if your children want to pet a dog you don't think advice on how to do it right is helpful, because it should be the responsibility of the dog owner to what, not own the dog?

No, I think advice on keeping dogs safely/responsibly should not exclude consideration of the environment you plan to keep the dog in.

And dog owners should not take dogs to places like Christmas markets and the school run and complain about people not knowing how to pet their dog because this demonstrates an irresponsible attitude to keeping a dog.

Well thank you for that. It clarifies the situation nicely. You've clearly completely missed the point of the website. Which could save a child's life, but which you think is a bad thing because there shouldn't be any risk in the first place.

It's a bit like saying kids shouldn't wear seatbelts because bad drivers shouldn't be allowed on the road.

Have you read anything I've written because you have consistently misconstrued it? You definitely haven't got the idea and I think this thread seems to have ended up extremely repetitive by people consistently trying to make my point seem ridiculous by deliberately misunderstanding it.

I have said it is a good idea for people to learn about dogs, I don't think it is a good idea for websites promoting keeping children safe from dog attacks to completely exclude anything about the responsibility of the owner to consider the environment they plan to/are keeping the dog in and only talk about the public generally and families needing to spot signs of stress and aggression in dogs. In this dog attack they mention and identify the contributing factors and proceed to mention about environments.

It is kind of like saying kids should wear seatbelts so they are less likely to get hurt when their drunk driving parents crash the car.

Offred your line of reasoning is incredibly reductive.

You don't like dogs,we all get it.

The people running the campaign are focussing on a particular issue. Are you seriously saying that education is a bad thing?

Yes people should train and control their dogs. They should also ensure their children behave themselves and do as they're told.

i started off thinking offred was being unreasonable, but then i read the website again and read their story again. they had 2 weimeraners (big powerful working.dogs) who admit they werent looking after the dogs needs properly as they werent being walked often enough for one reason or another. is it fair to keep dogs if you cant give them enough time to make sure they are happy and healthy? i think too often the dogs needs take a backseat because theyre 'just' dogs and they should fit in with the family. thats quite a selfish view to have really, and its not surprising that the stress builds in the animals. i think thats possibly the point offred is making (sorry if its not!) that yes education is a good thing on both sides but too often people get dogs because they want one and dont put enough thought into what is good for the dog or consider the fallout on people around them when their dog reacts to stimulus around them.

YANBU. I have the most gorgeous cuddly bear Eeyore lookalike cocker spaniel. 12 years on and a dream to be around, never shown any aggression to adults, snapped growled etc, just a lovely placid dog. So you're wondering where am going with this, right? Well, that same teddy bear lookalike cute ball of fluff has never been brought up around children and BOY does he not like them. I wholly trust the beast amongst adults , but not with a child, not even for a second! He be ones agitated, snappy and incredibly jealous. Do I think he would harm a child if they came into his space? Quite possibly, yes. Perhaps just as a warning but hey, have you seen the size of my teddy bears incisors ? !

Saint, I understand that, I really do.

But how many parents would take on that message - you're neglecting your dogs, you're not providing adequately for them, they're under stress.

Most look at the dogs and think 'what's the problem? He's getting less walks but he's coping ok, he's not snarling at the kids'.

By teaching people the signs of dog stress you're equipping them to see the situation in a truer light. Which is more likely to effect change than preaching that they're bad dog owners.

I know myself that having children had a negative impact on my dogs' lives. I've taken action to mitigate this where possible but the fact remains that they get much less stimulation now. I didn't plan for children but nor do I think the dogs wold be better off awaiting rehoming in a rescue kennel. So I do what I can to identify and minimize stress, pretty successfully. Not a perfect solution but a practical one, and that's what the website is about.