to think that whether you love dogs or loathe them you must ensure your children are safe around them?

[poachedeggs]

And you can do that by looking at this fantastic website:

www.liamjperkfoundation.org/

These people are so brave and so inspiring. Their campaign is, in my opinion, the most effective way to keep children safe around dogs. Please take a look and share it with your friends.

I know, I was just trying to say it's not just to do with being uneasy. I was on the mobile site and the behaviour descriptions are much more simplistic than on the full site.

Haha - I yawn when I'm stressed, I may be more in tune with dogs than I think. Thanks Alisvolatpropiis. Usually by the point I can say anything the dog is already on me and I have frozen. I would definitely thank you gratefully if you called your dog off! Kind of you to do that :)

Seriously you really think people who don't have dogs, or even a lot who do are interested enough to actually learn this stuff? Loads and loads of people get dogs for company or as a toy and have no intention of thinking about their needs as an animal or the appropriateness of their environment for a dog.

Why is it society's responsibility to make sure children can understand stress signals from dogs that people insist on bringing around children? Surely children are not even going to be able to actually do this well anyway and parents cannot watch them all the time, plenty of parents won't be able to do this well. In our local children's park there is a leash law, dogs are banned from the playground, about 1% of owners use a leash, everyone else argues their dog needs the exercise of running around, every year the protected wildlife that lives in the park is disturbed and/or killed by dogs, children and adults get dog shit all over their shoes and clothes, these people choose not to let their dogs off the leash in the dog park which is actually round the block a few hundred metres from the park, they do not understand it is their responsibility not to have a dog if they can't own it responsibly.

Why do dog owners not have to take responsibility for their dogs? Keep them in dog friendly conditions or not at all and don't take them to parks and round town and on the school run or any other place a dog will need to be actively controlled and will feel stressed out?

Some dog owners are responsible, many think they are when they aren't and some don't actually care. I've always taught my children to be wary of dogs and not approach them but as others describe it has become virtually impossible to go anywhere without being accosted by a legion of completely irresponsible dog owners who bring dogs into the playground because "I know when my dog wees and poos" let them run wild because "he is a big softy" bring them everywhere they go even if it is totally inappropriate because "ooo she is my baby" or keep them in totally inappropriate places because "I can't help where I live".

And anyone who says "my dog doesn't bite" is not to be trusted.

Offred...dogs do need exercise

I would never take my dog walking offlead through a children's park though.

I do think it's important to teach children how to behave around animals generally speaking. But it's also important that the owners train and understand their animals. As in understand them for what they are...animals. I don't think there is anything implicitly wrong with people referring to their dog as their "baby" unless the dog is sitting in a handbag wearing a dress at the same time but it is wrong to treat them like humans. They are animals. I call my puppy my baby all the time. Doesn't mean I don't treat her like a dog.

The thing is as you've said,lots of people get dogs without any prior knowledge. Which is quite amazing given the wealth of behaviour books one can buy. There's no point getting the book after you have the dog because you'll still be clueless. Owning a dog is a big commitment and not just in terms of taking them for a walk.

I was interested in the advice on the page, Offred , for children - it was smaller than the dog behaviour section but seemed helpful i.e. to 'be a tree'.

From those of you with more knowledge of dog behaviour, would you concur with this?

I think that is the campaign's aim though - they obviously loved their dogs and want to help those with DC and pets - not say 'never the twain' (that's my take on their website, anyway).

The recent occurrence in this country with a Jack Russell (I think?) and tiny baby made my blood run cold though. It takes one bite. I'd rather be (over?) vigilant and proved wrong, than think 'it's fine' and be proved wrong. :(

I think the "be a tree" advice is quite accurate. Dogs can get excited/feel threatened by flapping hands,running and screaming.

I remember when I was 5/6 walking my Grans dog with her and a massive Rottweiler came charging over. I was terrified and my Gran kept saying "it's fine Alis,just stand still". I'm fairly sure she wasn't exactly ecstatic looking back but I stood still,the Rottweiler had a sniff off my Gran's Yorkshire terrier and bounded off again. If I had started flapping,screaming or running,it's quite likely the dog would have either panicked or chased me.

*i have no issue with Rottweilers as an adult when walking,but at 5/6 they really are massive,especially when the dog you're most familiar with is a Yorkshire terrier. I know they're not all bad dogs.

Yes, Whispering, I believe that is what their campaign is aimed at. Wrt to the tragic incident with the JRT, I couldn't comment. There was never any information in the media to possibly comment as to what may have led to the bite, but I doubt it was jealousy as has been mentioned in the media. Rescource guarding maybe, but not jealousy and it is fortunately very, very rare. As is what happened to poor Liam, which is why these cases attract so much media attention.

My heart goes out to anyone who has had to go through something like this but I do think that 99.99% of the cases could have been avoided with proper and responsible training and management of the dogs involved.

Of course dogs need exercise!!! They don't need to be taken off the lead in a park where there is a leash law and a dog park over the road so that they can have their exercise in a children's park. Not many people understand or bother about having a dog being a big commitment that I have seen. The point was not that people who call their dog's their babies are automatically irresponsible it is people who take them everywhere including irresponsible places and justify it because their dog is their baby.

I was agreeing with you there Offred! There are lots of people who treat their dogs like people not like the animals they are.

And re children's parks. I was just a bit eh? Because it read like you were saying dogs should never be off lead ever, when there are appropriate places for it. But I see what you mean now.

So...I am in agreement with your points.

As a dog owner I love my dog and think she is delightful. I don't expect everybody else to and so she is trained accordingly. No jumping/running at people etc.

Oh and I also think obviously people should teach their children and educate themselves about dogs BUT the problem is not children touching the dogs, it is people choosing to keep dogs in and bring them to inappropriate environments.

Our school virtually every newsletter asks parents not to bring their dogs into the school, there are always several people who do every single day anyway. Dog owners who do this often think their dog is special and they should be allowed to break the rules when questioned. What do you do with these people? How will this education program help when it seems to re-inforce the message that the owner doesn't have to be responsible for the environment they place the dog in, it is everyone around who has to watch to see if it is going to bite?

Alis, I am getting the impression that certain posters are on this thread simply to provoke an argument with dog owners and lovers. Just smile and nod and walk away. It's the people equivalent of 'be a tree'

No, I'm just really sick of being made to tolerate other people's irresponsible dog ownership! It is one thing that really pisses me off because it is dangerous for dogs and people and a crappy life for the dog to lead. And I like dogs, that's why I don't have one.

I think taking a dog into a school playground is really stupid. Sure the dogs need their morning walks...get up earlier and take them.

Given that dogs get over excited/stressed at loud noises,running and general flapping it is probably one of the least suitable places you could ever take one. Plus the vast majority of children want to touch the dog.

I had to show a very sweet little girl how to pet my puppy the other day because she was waving her hand around over puppy's head and then bashing her on the head occasionally,puppy was a bit bemused by this. The little girl was a bit unsure of herself and her mum was paying no attention whatsoever.

But I can't be a tree with people!

But that's the thing - if the dog is never taken to town, parks and school run and are only walked in quiet forest or empty fields, then of course they will get stressed, if they encounter something unknown one day. Our trainer told us to start introducing the puppies to new, also busy and noisy environments as soon as possible, because every now and then you will have to take them to new places. Exactly so we can avoid the situations where anything new or unexpected will freak the dogs out.

As for why should kids be taught how to behave - because people have dogs. Yes, it's my responsibility to control my dogs, it's also a driver's responsibility not to run over people, but we still tell the kids to stop and look when crossing the road.

I don't think people should have dogs in those situations, why do they? It isn't for the dog's benefit is it?

I'm not saying people shouldn't be taught about dogs, I'm saying this website makes it society's responsibility to not get bitten by dogs that people are trying to keep in really inappropriate and unhappy lives.

Can I ask a totally unrelated question as reading this thread you guys sound very knowledgable about doggie behaviour? I don't own a dog or want one but trying to teach DD to love animals.

My neighbour has a lovely mastiff cross who is soppy as anything but he has a thing about licking childrens faces. My toddler (nearly 2) likes dogs but is terrified of him - he is at just the right height to walk up and lick her face (which he always does in greeting when we see him). My DD then screams the place down. The neighbour tells him off and pulls him away but this still happens every time we meet the dog.

I'm trying to encourage DD not to be afraid of dogs, and quickly pick her up when the dog approaches, but sometimes I don't get there quick enough. I'm not all that hot on him licking her tbh and I avoid going to my neighbour's house as the dog will constantly try to lick DD.

Advice?

Offred...not all dogs lead unhappy lives.

What are your thoughts on wild animals? Tigers for example? Society's responsibility to understand and respect the animal or should they all be shot and mounted on a wall to ensure everyone is safe?

Wild animals are completely different to animals people choose to bring into unnatural environments... Obviously...

It isn't about ensuring everyone is safe because that is impossible it is about a risk reward balance, owning a dog in a home is a completely unnecessary personal choice which creates risk for others so it should be done responsibly including the choice as to whether a dog is brought into a home or not.

But unnatural environments are encroaching on wild animals habitats. Like tigers in India and foxes in the UK.

Dogs have been kept for thousands of years. Domesticated by people. So yes,society does have a responsibility to understand their behaviour.

Some might argue that children are an unnecessary personal choice,indeed I know people who. They don't like dogs either mind.