To think the Duchess of Cambridge has no place in sports personality of the year

[Nishky]

Martina Navratilova made a moving speech about female role models so who do they roll out to present it?

This isn't women hating it is about her status not her sex if I understand correctly. Many people think like yellowtip. I find the royal family irrelevant andndon't like them at all but wish them no harm. She did work btw as my sisters bf was her boss. By all accounts a sweet but dull girl

QuickLookBusy the fact that I'm strongly against being required to adulate this very ordinary middle class woman and for that reason am simply pointing out some well known truths (re. the job, or lack of it) does not make me a woman hater any more than a man hater and tbf why not judge? Judging in some situations seems absolutely fine. It's really not a big deal.

noddy I don't wish her harm. Of course not. That would be odd. But one can't express the obvious about her without the royal lackeys trying to impute just that, wrongly. Or claiming that the detractor is jealous or bitter.When we're really not. Mildly contemptuos yes, jealous and bitter, a definite no :) She did try working it's true, in a part time job (was it Jigsaw?) but couldn't take or didn't want to take the pace. Because she needed to be 'available'. Lots of people have done the army girlfriend thing. It's really not impossible.

Most of the views on her have dipped deep into woman hating. She has been slagged off for her pregnancy, her illness, lying about her illness, her lack of job, doing her job, causing Jacintha Saldanas death, her clothes, her hair, her intellect, being nice (or not) and on and on and on.

Any woman who feels the need to slag off another woman so thoroughly, simply for being who she is, must have some deep seated 'issues' of their own. Sisterhood? Bollocks.

If you don't believe in or support the monarchy, fine, call yourself a republican and profess distaste. Why the need to bitch and moan and use disparaging nicknames about the people within? It makes a person sound bitter and twisted and completely lose the weight of the arguement.

Imagine the conversation:

"Let's get rid of the Monarchy"
"OK, why"
Outdated institution Costs the taxpayer classless society "because I don't like her hair and I think she's thick"
"Umm OK" fucking loon

I don't exactly agree with Yellow on Kate - I dislike what she represents (the royals) rather than who she is (I'm usually indifferent but I suppose currently very slightly leaning (say, a 1 or 2 degree lean, imperceptible to the human eye) to being a bit sorry for her) whereas I think Yellow dislikes her qua Kate rather than qua royal however I completely agree with her on the issue of being 'pro women'. What a ridiculous thing to claim! Are we supposed to be pro say a female member of UKIP or the BNP because we share a gender? How silly would that be? Am I supposed to be pro Arsenal womens' team because the players are women and overlook the fact that they are also the spawn of the devil? I think not. Apart from the obvious examples above, the one other group of women I am almost always definitely not pro are the ones who think I should be pro every woman in existence just because of my gender. Because that is just bonkers.

Actually, the irredeemable thickness of the royals is a VERY good reason for wanting to get rid of the monarchy. They are almost all completely embarrassing. The worst thing they could ever have done was introduce Diana inti the gene pool. At least Kate is a (massive) step up from that but still - these are not people who exactly shine, are they?

at least Diana watered down the horsey faces

But Mordion who does shine? What constitutes 'thick'?

I didn't go to Uni - Only got GCSEs, but I'm certainly not thick. I have done very well in my chosen career and wouldn't have been able to do so had I been 'thick'.

My friend is a builder. He left school with no qualifications but has built a business, works hard, provides for his family, employs others. But is he thick?

My neice left school at 14, had a terrible upbringing which has impinged on her whole life but has raised a fabulous daughter, budgets her meager incomings and runs a happy household. Is she thick?

Prince William and Prince Harry both passed their AAC pilots training - its seriously hard and 100s fail every year. Are they thick?

Zara is a qualified Equestrian Physiotherapist. Is she thick?

There are many women on MN who have Uni qualifications, degrees, doctorates, PHDs etc. Some of them chose to be SAHMs and not 'use' their qualifications. Are they thick?

Katie Price has used her body, her relationships, her children, to make a name for herself in the media. She is seriously, mind bogglingly rich. Is she thick?

LtEve I know you take issue with my experience of rampant chauvinism in the army , because it appears that the army can do no wrong in your eyes. Which is fine. But that doesn't excuse the revolting post above. It's exactly as Mordion says: separate the issues from gender. You seem to have difficulty with this just as you seem to have difficulty with several conceptual issues such as the recent one where you attempted (poorly, it has to be said) to distinguish between Zara Phillips acting in a thoroughly unpleasnt way and being thoroughly unpleasant. I think you did well to avoid law as a career.

You have absolutely no grounds whatsoever to suggest that I've ever posted, or indeed share the view, that Kate Middleton caused the death of Jacintha Saldanha. I do believe that the sycophancy surrounding these royls was the overwhelming causative factor but that's quite a different thing. Given the tragic nature of the death I think an apology would be in order. How grotesque.

Show me a single post where I said that you said Kate caused the death of Jacintha Saldana?

LtEve we can't possibly know whether you or any of the relatives you mention are thick. All we know of you is what and how you post, so I suppose we have to divine it from that. Leaving you aside though, please don't try to pretend thick people don't climb up army ranks. Just please don't, or your much vaunted credibility will be seriously cast into doubt :)

Oh and that I think you did well to avoid law as a career is simply, eye-wateringly funny

A couple of posts ago LtEve.

C&P the post then yellowtip. Because I don't see it?

LtEve In my experience there isn't a huge correlation between being (for want of a better word) 'non thick' and being successful. Many thick people are very very successful in many ways. Many hugely clever people are not. However if you genuinely don't know the difference between being thick and not, then I'm afraid I can't help you. :(

08.46am LtEve; in the context of the thread you very clearly meant me. Please don't do another Zara.

No Mordion, I'm not even being sarcastic. I am interested in what you call 'thick'. Is it a lack of qualifications? The lack of Uni education? Not using your talents? or something else?

Is someone with SENs thick? Or is it just an attitude, or 'style' of a person.

When you say that the Royal Family are thick, what do you mean? How do you rate it?

Yellow Given the number of thick men in positions of power everywhere else in the country it would be amazing if the army didn't have its fair share, no?

LtEve The ability to do something practical like flying a helicopter is absolutely NOT a guarantee of not being thick, incidentally.

No yellowtip, that post was in reply to the previous post from Noddy, that was cross posted due to the fast moving nature of the thread.

Or to C&P from your own post, after you made a personal attack on me: No, no I was talking about someone else entirely. Don't think it's all about you

I think almost by definition if a person can't distinguish between not thick (and in the extreme case of certain royals irredeemably thick) and thick, then they're thick. Perhaps irredeemably so.

LtEve The ability to do something practical like flying a helicopter is absolutely NOT a guarantee of not being thick, incidentally

The training takes over a year in the classroom, before they even sit in a helicopter. There are exams after every level. There are technical exams, science based exams, rescue based exams, repair and mechanical exams, weather exams and so on. It is one of the hardest military qualifications to obtain. But I just thought you'd be interested, not sarcastic, so my apologies.

Yellow Precisely.

LtEve Being one of the hardest military exams is not exactly a ringing endorsement of rigour is it. One of the hardest exams accessible for someone who scrapes 2 A levels including art.......this is supposed to impress me how, exactly? Being able to fly an aircraft, now that is impressive (especially to someone with dyspraxia such as myself). But it isn't a guarantee of being not thick. Just as not being able to fly an aircraft isn't a guarantee if being thick.

OK Mordion, well that's fine, you can believe what you wish, of course. It's quite obvious that you don't want to listen, don't want your status quo upset. I can understand that I suppose.

I'm always keen to hear another's viewpoint, but an explation of that viewpoint is generally required if you don't want to sound 'thick'. It makes for interesting discussion rather than simply nasty diatribe. When people can back up their assertions, or give an avenue for further education I find it facinating. Sly, underhand and passive aggressive insults? Meh, not so much.

I wish you well.

Interestingly none of the Royal Family's critics has yet taken up my challenge to show that they do charitable or community work themselves, let alone achieve a tenth of what any senior Royal does. I wonder why these critics of those whom they seem to think serve no useful purpose are so quiet about their own good works - they surely can't be shy judging by their posts on this thread?

If its not woman hating then where are all the threads discussing the male members of the royal family?

Every single time it's about Kate, just like Diana. I like the royals, but it wouldn't bother me too much if they weren't there. What really pisses me off are these constant personal attacks. And they ARE personal.

If you don't want a royal family, discuss the institution, don't pick on an individual young woman whose done no harm to anyone.