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Original poster

to notice that the killings in the USA

380 replies

butisthismyname · 14/12/2012 21:28

Are HUGE NEWS, but the children who are being shot and killed every day in syria, the children who live on the streets and die every day in south america and the children who are dying in third world countries are 'part of the furniture'? I know what has just happened is horrific and sad and awful, but it's just so fucking unfair. It's like the twin towers - OMG the USA is in trouble, lets be outraged ( not negating that but just an example) When will we be as understanding and sympathetic and make what is happening everywhere else in the world as important and newsworthy as this?

OP posts:
ChristmasTreegles · 17/12/2012 13:23

Not that it's any of YOUR business, but when my father had a dreadful fall a few years ago, fracturing his skull and sustaining brain damage which affected his judgement, one of the first things my mother did before he was brought home from his extended stay in hospital was to turn the gun in to the local police as she felt it would not be safe in the home. She felt it was the responsible thing to do. He passed away last year, having had a poor recovery.

Do you feel better knowing that? Hmm

SantasBigBaubles · 17/12/2012 13:24

Wow, poor people can just move. I wonder why they never think of that. Those steeped in poverty can just leave. Mayeb they can get the council to move them? of wait, no, cause it's not the UK. Sometimes they really can't afford to leave. Or for what they can afford they can't go anywhere nicer.

Actually don't respond, I am going to hide this thread and a few others. It just makes me sad. I have been on mumsnet for years and this is the first time I have really considered flouncing.

MiniTheMinx · 17/12/2012 13:26

Hi Baubles, so people have guns for self defence because of the fear that others have guns. I agree, and I find that sad, not a great way to live. I know that in areas with huge social problems there is more crime, which is why I mentioned this up thread, about economic and social problems. But ChristmasTree tells us people do not carry guns through fear but because of common sense. Hmm

I spent a night in Huston a while back, awake all night with the furniture shoved up against the door Grin helicopters overhead and police sirens all night and the bathroom window had been shot out at some point before I got there. It wasn't fun really. I can think of nicer places to kip!

MiniTheMinx · 17/12/2012 13:28

I'm sorry for your loss christmas. I hope your mum is ok.

amillionyears · 17/12/2012 13:29

Sorry about your dad.
Yes, I am glad your mother did that.
Didnt know some questions were taboo.

SantasBigBaubles · 17/12/2012 13:33

there are 311,591,917 people in america. We have got differing opinions mini, I disagree with Tree, that's why it isn't helpful for people to say "Americans do this" or "Americans do that".

Really am going to hide this now, never hid a thread before though, don't know how Blush

MiniTheMinx · 17/12/2012 13:43

Its at the bottom of the page with flip, I'm hiding it too. Nothing will change more innocents will die and more guns will be sold. Ho Hum

ChristmasTreegles · 17/12/2012 13:53

This, exactly. If you have read my posts, Mini, you'll recall I stated that my mother had a gun for protection in the house, not out of fear, but out of common sense. It was common when/where she grew up. My parents also had hunting rifles in the house. Again - they didn't "carry" guns. They had them in the house, secured. I don't ever remember my parents even getting out a gun other than for hunting purposes during hunting season. So I hardly think fear was a huge motivator for them.

I cannot provide logistical reasons for the other 311,591,916 people in the country... I imagine some have them for strictly hunting, some for fear... but I think you don't do yourself any favours by assuming it's all down to "fear." My sister works in law enforcement in the states and has guns in her house - her duty gun, as well as a secondary handgun. Her choice - she is a responsible gun owner and keeps them secured. She also carries a gun, concealed, due to her work (with a permit obviously).

I have a friend that carried a gun (concealed with permit) who worked with me in law enforcement for years. She carried it out of fear - fear because her police ex-husband had threatened to kill her and was routinely stalking her. I wasn't keen on her carrying it, as she was highly emotional and under extreme pressure, but again .. her choice.

Not all Americans are driving around in pickups with gun racks on them or sitting on their porch at night, cleaning their rifles. (although I do know a few Grin)

Personally, I think the major issue is not guns, but gun safety/control.

amillionyears · 17/12/2012 15:30

That last sentence is the problem for most Brits.

Yes, the law abiding people would be the first to hand in their guns under a gun amnesty. And the militia would be the last.
But if the majority of the population is in agreement [which it isnt at the moment, as I understand it], it has to start with the law abiding people.

ChristmasTreegles · 17/12/2012 15:40

Nope. You're wrong. Many law abiding people will say "I have my gun legally. It's responsibly secured and used. There's no reason why I shouldn't have it." And they'd be correct. THEY are not the problem.

People can be law abiding and still have guns in the US, you know. I think this is where you are not seeing the whole picture.

It's rather irrelevant that the "last sentence is the problem for most Brits." It's US law. Not UK law. Understandably, you have different laws here and many feel differently about it. But the US is a different culture, for all that we're similar to the UK.

There is nothing wrong with a legally obtained gun that is carefully and safely secured. The problem is with those guns that are not, combined with those that would use them for criminal purposes.

amillionyears · 17/12/2012 15:47

But most Brits I think, and as far as I know would not agree with the statement "There is nothing wrong with a legally obtained gun that is carefully and safely secured".
Yes, maybe , if it is a necessity for say hunting [I know little about hunting].

That I think is the part where most Brits disagree with it seems most Americans.

cuillereasoupe · 17/12/2012 16:28

I'm interested to hear what those arguing for guns for defensive purposes make of this case:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori

ChristmasTreegles · 17/12/2012 17:11

cuillereasoupe but in that instance, based on what is written, the gun was used irresponsibly. It appears the student was outside the house, the gun owner could have locked the door and rang the police if he was frightened. At that point, his life was not in danger, so deadly force was not required. He shouldn't have been acquitted IMO.

You know, just because I don't agree with you on some points, doesn't mean that I feel life should be one big shoot-em-up. Hmm

amillionyears Not to put too fine a point on it, it's US law, pertaining to the US. I'm not sure they're that fussed whether or not "most Brits" agree or not.

Just like immigration, which is a hot topic in both countries, gun control is an issue that is a bit deceptive. People get very hot under the collar about it in general, but the fact remains that it's not those that are following the letter of the law that are the problem - it's the ones that do things illegally. And those people are going to continue working outside the law regardless.

Animation · 17/12/2012 17:16

I'm told by my US relative that you can buy guns very easily without any checks - and that you can get them in Walmart! He lives in Colorado.

ChristmasTreegles · 17/12/2012 17:19

If he says so.... Hmm

amillionyears · 17/12/2012 17:23

"but the fact remains that it's not those that are following the letter of the law that are the problem".

But it is.
The mother who had the guns in her house was probably following the law.

I realise we are going to have to agree to differ on this.
But since you are choosing to be on this British site, I can talk about a British person's pov.

ChristmasTreegles · 17/12/2012 17:32
Animation · 17/12/2012 17:37

If he says so....

Hey Christmas Treegles - do you need answer everyone's post Grin Take the pressure off yourself and let the discussion evolve.

Yes, it does seems to be the case that you can walk in Walmart and buy a gun - in Colorado anyway. If that's the case then it seems very wrong to me. and he would agree.

gordyslovesheep · 17/12/2012 17:38

actually the you tube clip makes a serious POINT

but I couldn;t give a tiny rats left ball if you take me seriously or not :)

amillionyears · 17/12/2012 17:41

First part.
You have now chosen to answer a little silly.
[and yes I am pretty sure you are going to come back with an answer to that too!].
People can see what you are choosing to write.

Actually both answers are silly.

I may have to be like the others and stop online talking with you now.

amillionyears · 17/12/2012 17:43

My post was to ChristmasTreegles.

chandellina · 17/12/2012 17:45

I don't support guns in the home at all, hunters and shooting range sportsters can keep them in safe premises.

This shooting seems to exemplify the problem that guns may be legally kept but are vulnerable to illegal use or theft.

Despite what was said previously, police statistics show that few US burglars are armed with guns, most just want to grab cash and valuables to sell for drugs. But if there's a gun in the house, there's a good chance a burglar will steal it and sell it.

GreenEggsAndNichts · 17/12/2012 18:09

Colorado doesn't require checks or a permit. They do have a ban on assault rifles. That's about it. They allow open carry and concealed carry.

Gun control varies by state. Some states have strict controls, some have virtually none. There are several states which require no permit at all. Federal law requires that a form be filled out. If the person has no documented history of mental illness etc, this isn't going to be discovered by filling out this form.

Pantomimedam · 17/12/2012 18:13

Heard an interesting thing on Radio 4 news. Apparently the second amendment doesn't mean everyone has the right to own whatever gun they like. The wording means guns are allowed for the purposes of being part of a militia. It wasn't until very recently that a Supreme Court ruling (by an extremely right-wing Supreme Court stuffed full of Bush supporters) decided it meant any nutter could own whatever firearm they liked, including machine guns.

I do hope that this tragedy - merely the latest in a long line - means Americans at least stand a chance of banning private ownership of assault weapons. That would at least limit the number of people a violent madman can kill in one go.

flippinada · 17/12/2012 19:00

I've been reading around this a bit (yesterday and today are the only days I've felt able to read the news stories in any detail).

I discovered two things - in 1994 a federal law was passed banning assault rifles. This expired in 2004, since when the US had experienced its worst mass shootings. My understanding is that federal law "trumps" state law. Connecticut state law bans assault rifles but apparently this is very hard to enforce. No doubt US Mnetters will know more about this and can correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, apparently only one in five Americans owns a gun. That really surprised me.