Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to notice that the killings in the USA

380 replies

butisthismyname · 14/12/2012 21:28

Are HUGE NEWS, but the children who are being shot and killed every day in syria, the children who live on the streets and die every day in south america and the children who are dying in third world countries are 'part of the furniture'? I know what has just happened is horrific and sad and awful, but it's just so fucking unfair. It's like the twin towers - OMG the USA is in trouble, lets be outraged ( not negating that but just an example) When will we be as understanding and sympathetic and make what is happening everywhere else in the world as important and newsworthy as this?

OP posts:
Pantomimedam · 16/12/2012 23:15

Polkadot, stereotyping an entire nation is not racist as Americans are not a race. There are loads of different races living in America.

No-one is systematically discriminating against Americans, or denying them the right to vote, or sending them to the gas chambers. Hmm

Boot very much on the other foot, in fact. Look at the KKK, look at segregation, look at the despicable treatment of native Americans... and to be fair, look at all the American people who stood up for what's right and fought against those things.

PolkadotCircus · 16/12/2012 23:21

Well you know most countries now have several different races/ethnic groups and if you stereotyped any other nation as a whole it would be deemed racist.

Saying all Americans don't want to give up playing cops and robbers(completely untrue going by my dp's family) is no different from calling all Indians curry munchers.It's racist and it's horrible particularly at a time like this.

MiniTheMinx · 16/12/2012 23:32

I spoke in that way because you seem unable to understand. Can you not spot irony? Do you not understand sarcasm? I was out of order in assuming that I had to make my argument understandable using a childish story telling style. I am sure though that you have the intellect to understand the points made and take issue with those and not just with the style in which it was written.

garlicbaubles · 16/12/2012 23:45

Polka, it's not making a sweeping generalisation about all Americans. It's referring to repeated polls and surveys, which show Americans not only want to keep their guns but are misinformed about current levels of control. Your DP's family, if they disagree, are in the minority. This is statistical.

To pick up on your ugly analogy, a poll of Indians probably would show curry is their dish of choice. Actually, surveys of the English show the same thing. So, while I hope I wouldn't use a bigoted expression like "curry munchers", I know I'm perfectly well justified to say the English love a curry. It's a numerical fact.

Oh dear, I'm supposed to have left this thread Blush

garlicbaubles · 16/12/2012 23:52

Since I am here, Treegles, I'd like to respond to your reply at 23:06. It's difficult, though, because I can't work out whether you honestly didn't understand a word of what I posted - and have made up your own interpretation rather than ask - or have disingenuously pretended to misunderstand. Either way, your joke about irony has misfired. It shot you in the foot.

LadyBeagleBaublesandBells · 17/12/2012 00:03

Curry Munchers?
WTF?
It's been proved in polls over the last couple of years to be Britain's national dish.

CuriousMama · 17/12/2012 00:06

I hadn't heard a thing about the Chinese children and teacher? Just googled now not much news on it tbh. Poor bairns they'll be scarred for life emotionally as well as physically.

It's so bloody awful. All of it.

garlicbaubles · 17/12/2012 00:12

Beagle, we do great xposts Grin

Pantomimedam · 17/12/2012 00:14

Polka, you misunderstood my point. Racism is about race. Not nationality. If the English joke about French 'frogs' and Les Francais joke about English 'rosbifs' it's not racism - the majority population in both countries shares the same racial characteristics.

(Although race and nationality can be conflated e.g. nasty comments about the difference between Chinese eyes and European.)

SantasBigBaubles · 17/12/2012 01:44

POlka, just give up. People will defend themselves rather than admit that they have been twats. Its the same as when someone make a sexist or homophobic joke..they will rationalize and rationalize what they have said and why you should not have taken that way.

MIni is now using America's militias as a stick to beat us with and proof of how shit the US is. She didn't know they existed until I told her about them yesterday..despite being an expert. But there you go.

For the last time, i will say this. Every person I know would happily live in a gun free country. The problem is so many guns are here that they are scared to give up their guns. As the bad guys aren't going to give up theirs. The militias won't give up their guns. The gangs wont give up their guns

I don't keep a gun, I know the statistics and I don't want one in my home. But I can see the logic, the fear.. that people have.

All of you frothing about Americans and their guns, not one of you has told me how you would get rid of the knives in the UK? Tell me, when you can do that, I will happily write to every politician in the US myself and say hey guess what I've got an idea. Because I don't know and have never heard of any real way we could eliminate guns here.

Has our gun culture served us well? No it hasn't and yes, it will continue to be a problem. This is something that should have been dealt with a hundred years ago.

GothAnneGeddes · 17/12/2012 01:53

Santas - I think now would be a great time to talk about the type of guns USians are able to have access to. If it could be at least agreed that the average citizen does not need access to semi-automatic weaponry, that would be a huge start. If changes like that cannot be made in the wake of such an horrific tragedy, I'm not sure when they ever will happen.

While I understand that gun culture is hugely ingrained in the US, the general public can overturn that, in the same way that many other issues, such as racial segregation have been.

SantasBigBaubles · 17/12/2012 02:06

Absafuckinglutely Goth, most democrats want to get rid of the crazy weapons people have. People worry that this will erode their rights bit by bit though. I do think it would make for an interesting thread to talk about legitimate ways to convince people to give up their guns. :(

This isn't to you, but another point I thought of was this. On other threads many mumsnetters have admitted that they would defend their home if need be and keep a makeshift weapon in their room etc. This is because a cricket bat under the bed when the guy robbing you has a lead pipe or a knife seems like an equal weapon.

If you KNEW that the guy who was going to break in to your house would be armed would you start to wonder about a gun? What if you lived in a scary neighborhood.. full of gangs, and you KNEW they all carried guns. What would you carry?

ChristmasTreegles · 17/12/2012 07:46
PolkadotCircus · 17/12/2012 09:29

You're exactly right Santa,spot on.

One of my dp's cousins is now retired and in her 60s.Lovely gentle lady who has lived with very green,caring,peaceful ideals her whole life(the whole family are).

Once when we were staying dp opened the glove compartment as instructed and some kind of small gun/pistol thing(I have no gun knowledge what so ever)fell out.

We both jumped out of our skins however as she explained there were certain places she had to drive to for work on her own she couldn't think of doing without it-just incase.

Once we stayed near her house in some cabin in the redwoods and somebody tried to break in.I have never been so terrified in my life.In the UK if somebody tried to break in you just call 999 and wait, in the US in some places I suspect time is not your friend if an intruder has a gun and you don't. The feeling of complete helplessness ie it was simply up to the intruder as to what the outcome would be was stark.Thankfully he/she just rattled a few doors and windows and went on their way however the realisation of our vulnerability didn't and I have to say if I was living in an area where I needed a gun at night to protect my dc I'd have one.It has nothing at all to do with wanting to play cops and robbers.

As others have said it's not a black/white issue and will take years to really sort out-pretty much like major issues in many other countries.

cuillereasoupe · 17/12/2012 09:34

Let me start this post by stating that I am firmly in favour of gun control.

I think a direct comparison between Britain and the US isn't particularly useful given the difference in population. A more useful comparison would be with Europe as a whole, both in terms of more equivalent populations and in terms of variations of gun laws (different US states have different laws). On the scale of Europe, while such events are of course rarer than in the US, the European record isn't that great. There have been plenty of mass killings in France, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Finland, Belgium, and Sweden, to name but a few (not to mention Japan, China and Korea): there's a list here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_Europe . Several incidents have involved knives rather than guns.

Such events tend to get a lot less international media coverage for a whole variety of reasons (neither do US shootings by women, of which there have been several). It's also something of a myth that it is a recent phenomenon: they date back to at least the 1920s but of course there was no international 24-hour rolling news in those days.

My point is that "only in America" and "angry young white loner" are misleading places to start the debate from, and I think these stereotypes are something the media very much plays into.

MiniTheMinx · 17/12/2012 09:34

Santa, I am actually agreeing with you over the feasibility of changing the law. I am aware of "patriots and Survivalists" I wasn't aware of militias.

Today it transpires that the mother of the gunman was a survivalists. She feared that the American state would impose martial law upon the people should America go into economic collapse. If you read further up thread, this is what I was trying to say.

Why do Americans fear that changing the gun law will be the first thing on the slippery slope towards a totalitarian state and the erosion of freedom? Why do America's fear economic collapse?

I believe this can be traced back to the neo-liberalisation of the economy & McCarthyism. It includes the fight against the fantasy bogey man, (terrorism) imperialistic ambitions to export neo-liberal economic hegemony across the globe. This isn't strictly speaking stoked by the American Politicians but by a sell out to corporate interests. The jobs have gone overseas, they have become a debter nation and there is talk of the dollar collapsing and the Chinese currency becoming the reserve currency accross the globe. The whole of the political system in the U.S is corrupted by corporate money. Tell me it isn't?

I don't blame a worried and scared population from believing that they need to defend themselves, be it from their own state (corporate state) or criminals. What I do question is whether their is a link between what some theorists have called the psychotic state and a worried and scared populace?

There is a link btw the paranoia this mother felt and the state and its domestic and foreign policy.

PolkadotCircus · 17/12/2012 09:49

All Americans don't fear that changing gun laws will be the first thing on the slippery slope towards a totalitarian state and the erosion of freedom.All Americans don't fear economic collapse. Do you think you could take your USA hatred and generalisation elsewhere.

The mother in question and her son clearly had issues and problems. There are people with problems and extremist views in every society and country.

Going by your logic all Afghans are muslim extremist,infadel and women haters.

MiniTheMinx · 17/12/2012 10:05

I haven't said all, do I need to put "some" in front of the word "Americans" every time I say it.

Rather than twisting what I have written (which any intelligent person will realise is actually very disingenuous) try dealing with the political points I have made.

The whole of the political system in the U.S is corrupted by corporate money. Tell me it isn't? that would be a good place to start!

Are there people in America that fear their state? yes or no? is that healthy? Yes or no? why is that?

PolkadotCircus · 17/12/2012 10:20

Errrrr yes you doHmmin the same way any reasonable person would when discussing their views re any religion or nationality.

MiniTheMinx · 17/12/2012 10:32

I really do not mean ALL, but if it helps you to understand I will put the word SOME in front of American everytime I use the word. I apologise if you think I mean all, I do not. I am a socialist, an internationalist that doesn't see any differences between people ( i will not use the word race because that is a social construct designed by the political elite to divide people) who live within different national boarders. Which is why I am equally concerned for Afghani Children as I am American Children. Which is why i question the bias in media coverage. I am not proud of Britain, in our history we have inflicted great harm through our imperialism and economic policy, including making use of slavery and encouraging slavery in America so we had access to cheap cotton, our tally of crimes is as long if not longer Sad

but what to do about the fact that Some Americans live in fear from criminals, terrorists, communists, outside nations and economic collapse and their own state power against them? could it be that tackling that is the starting point for convincing people to hand in their weapons?

MiniTheMinx · 17/12/2012 10:38

www.projectworldawareness.com/2010/09/american-psychosis-what-happens-to-a-society-that-cannot-distinguish-between-reality-and-illusion/

This article makes a lot of my points in a way that is perhaps easier to digest and is very well written.

ChristmasTreegles · 17/12/2012 10:53

sigh.... you are not going to get the majority of people in the US to "hand in their weapons." It isn't going to happen. You can analyse until the cows come home, but it's patently obvious that this is a point that you simply are not recognising.

MiniTheMinx · 17/12/2012 11:05

Corporate corruption of democracy isn't just an American issue. I agree.

But a state that ensures it meets it's political and economic goals at gun point, is a state that encourages it's citizens to do the same. there is a link.

I know the vast majority of people want rid of the guns and the fear, I really do understand that, which is why I am trying to understand what motivates the fear of those who persist in wanting to maintain the right to bare arms. I am genuinely sad about what has happened to those School children. I don't want this for my children or your children. To be honest the only difference btw the UK and America is the gun laws. We have had our fair share of loons killing people including shooting people. That will probably increase as equality & democratic rights collapse in society.

ChristmasTreegles · 17/12/2012 11:21

Then you still misunderstand. A LOT of people DON'T WANT to get rid of the guns. Perhaps that's where you're missing the point.

I grew up in a military family, and then when my father retired, we moved to a midwest farming community. My father, other relatives, and parents of friends went deer hunting and duck hunting. We had hunting rifles in our house all the time. Secured safely, but still there in the house. I didn't know until I was in my 20's but the entire time I was growing up, my mother kept a loaded handgun in her nightstand right by her bed. My father was in the Navy, and out to sea for months at a time, and my mother kept the gun for protection (my father bought it for her, so I assume he was fine with it). All those years, we (my sisters and I) had no idea it was there (and it was perfectly safe as we were not allowed into my parents bedroom and would never have even considered looking through their stuff!). My mother was not a "frightened" person, just practical. If someone broke in, she knew she could protect herself and us with a gun, as she could use it confidently (having grown up in a family that used guns regularly for hunting in a very very rural New England area). Guns do serve a purpose for hunting, which is generally what they were used for by most that we knew.

Personally, I do feel somewhat that guns are not the problem nearly so much as poor gun laws, ownership rules, and training, as well as poor storage methods in households. As is evidenced by the story from China, if a gun is not available, another weapon will be found and used. Yes, there is a higher likelihood of death with a gun, but realistically speaking, that is why gun control needs to be tighter.

Ever heard the phrase "guns don't kill people, people kill people" ?? There is a grain of truth in that, you know.

perceptionInaPearTree · 17/12/2012 11:24

YABU and you sound anti-American. I find it really quite offensive that you would think it's ok to start a thread like this tbh. Have some consideration for the parents of the children they will never see again - people in the US do use mumsnet you know.